Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 17:06:45 -0700
From: "Grant Green"
Subject: RE: [CB] Linton contra
Hi Willy,
Enjoy!
Grant
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Sung Hwang Wang"
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 14:33:02 -0700
>Linton Eb: manufactured by Orsi and can still be specially
ordered from
>Orsi. Body is all brass tube with nickel plate.
Key system is simple
>system, with 2 roller keys for each little finger, no
alternate keys for low
>E, F, or F#, and only Eb/Bb side trill key. The
original mouthpiece was
>sadly (or not) missing when I bought it so I am using a
Fobes Debut with it.
---------------------------------------------------------
From: "Sung Hwang Wang"
Subject: RE: [CB] Linton contra
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 17:32:48 -0700
Strangely enough, I actually contacted Jack Linton for an
original mouthpiece (he said they have NOTHING left related to the
contras), but it never occured to me to contact Orsi for it.
Hmmm, definitely worth a try.
Thanks Grant for pointing to the light...
Willy
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 21:09:56 -0400
Subject: [CB] Fwd: [CB Digest]
From: Timothy Tikker
Begin forwarded message:
> From: John Nunes
> Date: Tue May 24, 2005 12:13:28 PM America/Detroit
> To: "Timothy Tikker"
> Subject: Re: [CB Digest]
>
>>>>> Even the perception of extended frequencies
is rare. I have
>>>>> gathered anecdotal evidence and performed
informal experiments
>>>>> indicating that bass hearing is
developmentally stunted by the bass
>>>>> distortions of speakers. People who
listen predominantly to
>>>>> acoustic instruments (real music) are never
fooled by reproduction,
>>>>> whereas the public at large has proclaimed
that recordings are
>>>>> indistinguishable from the original event
in every medium starting
>>>>> with the Edison phonograph.
Consequently, there is little market
>>>>> for designing accurate speakers since
anyone conditioned to music
>>>>> reproduction will not perceive the
improvement.
>>>
>>> Erroneous results happen without controlled
listening tests. (i.e.
>>> double blind,level matched [and time synced if
necessary])
>>>
>>>
>>>>> The shortcomings of bass speakers are,
first: there is a low
>>>>> frequency cutoff below which the output
falls rapidly. Conventional
>>>>> speakers are designed for a lower limit
around G1. "Subwoofers"
>>>>> designed for Home Theater (computer subs
are a mis-nomer) can
>>>>> usually manage a low B. The only
production speaker that extends
>>>>> into octo territory is the ServoDrive
Contra, a beast of a subwoofer
>>>>> that costs as much as a second hand
contraalto.
>>>
>>> Lots of subwoofers can get down below 20 Hz.
It gets progressively
>>> more expensive to do the lower you go and the
louder you want such
>>> frequencies.
>>>
>>>>> Secondly, anywhere near the cutoff
frequency time is radically
>>>>> distorted. This is exacerbated by
normal methods of extending the
>>>>> low frequency of speakers including
equalization, passive radiators,
>>>>> vents and worst of all the triple-tuned
Bose Wave system. This
>>>>> means that when reproducing any bass
instrument with a sharp attack,
>>>>> the sound of the speaker will overwhelm the
rhythm, or the Boombox
>>>>> Effect.
>>>
>>> Incorrect. The physical parameters for
predicting system behavior
>>> were quantified in the late 70's and are known as
the Theil-Small
>>> parameters.
>
>
>
>>> No speaker is perfect, but the T-S parameters give
one the tools to
>>> minimize them and/or choose what is to emphasized
for a given
>>> application.
>>>
>>> Used correctly, all the techniques mentioned can
help, but if
>>> improperly implemented can make things worse.
>>>
>>>
>>>>> To make matters worse, the recording end of
the equation is nearly
>>>>> always modified to reduce the effect of
these speaker distortions by
>>>>> simply eliminating the bottom
octaves. Classic microphones,
>>>>> consoles and media all cutoff bass in the
same octave as speakers.
>>>>> Normal production and engineering move the
cutoff point still higher
>>>>> (around E2), as documented by Greiner and
Eggers in a survey of
>>>>> recordings circa 1989.
>>>
>>> Often true, but by no means whatsoever is it
universal.
>>>
>>> There is a good reason for rolling off subsonic
frequencies, and that is
>>> not doing it can emphasize undesirable effects such
as ventilation and
>>> air conditioning systems, trucks shaking the ground
and etc.
>>>
>>>
>>>>> So what can be done? A small goup of
engineers are pursuing the
>>>>> bass potential of digital
reproduction. There are new microphone
>>>>> designs from Earthworks (QTC1,) Sennheiser
(MKH20) and AKG
>>>>> (C480B/CK62) and headphones from Sennheiser
(HD590), Beyerdynamic
>>>>> (DT931) and Ultrasone (most models) that
cover octo-contrabass range
>>>>> with precision. For about $2,000 you
can put together a mono
>>>>> reproduction system, and $3,000-$5,000 for
stereo including a CD
>>>>> recorder or computer with interface.
>>>
>>> There is <<<NOTHING>>> new about
mics that can record clean subsonic signals.
>>>
>>>>> These recordings can be distributed with no
loss of bass over the
>>>>> internet and playback systems are a
bargain, using a $200-$500
>>>>> headphone and nearly any headphone amp -
except maybe the one that
>>>>> comes in your computer.
>>>>>
>>>>> I will gladly record any contrabass
activity in the Greater New York
>>>>> area, having collected the above
mentioned into travel cases. The
>>>>> only caveat is that there is substantial
low frequency noise
>>>>> anywhere near vehicular traffic, even miles
from train tracks and
>>>>> highways in some cases.
>>>>>
>>>>> Larry de Martin
>>>>> Greenwich CT
>>>>>
>>>>> p.s. Do not let any recording engineer tell
you that his cardioid
>>>>> microphones are better, or even as good as
the omnidirectional
>>>>> models listed. Bass is always stunted
by directionality. Further,
>>>>> no Neumann model has the octo bass response
of these either.
>>>
>>> I don't like cardioid mikes in general, but they
have a use in some
>>> live concert situations, where using omni s can
result in too much
>>> relative audience noise. Mics behave very
differently than our ears.
>>>
>>> One thing not mentioned is the distorting effect of
the listening
>>> room, which causes bumps and dips in the overall
response (mostly in
>>> the bass) that <<<FAR>>> exceed
that of some of the worst speakers. I
>>> now use a DSP based room correction system, and
while not a panacea,
>>> the advantages far outweigh any negative impact.
>>>
>>>
>>> You can also do this with a PC, using a high end
sound card, which is
>>> what I'm going to do in the near future and works
better than the Tact
>>> stuff, which is the best there is on the commercial
market. Cheaper too.
>
- John Nunes (forwarded by Tim Tikker)
---------------------------------------------------------
From: "Sung Hwang Wang"
Subject: [CB] Contras
Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 12:48:53 -0700
To continue on my previous email, I wish to offer my personal
observation on two Bb Contrabasses: Leblanc 340 to low D, and Vito (now
known as Leblanc USA) to low Eb on my next email. I play them
regularly in a wind ensemble. They are both unique instruments
with their own quirks, but very playable as daily horns and it’s
a joy to play too.
But in this email I wish to make an important observation that
will probably be useful to those of you contemplating to buy these
particular brands of horns. I would hazard to guess that this
observation is also shared by many of you who play them.
My point of discontent with Leblanc has to do how inattentively
it handles the by-no-means trivial issue of adjustable height mechanism
that support their lower clarinets. It should be obvious to a
manufacturer that due to the considerable weight of the lower clarinets
and the fact that majority of these players play them in groups, that
these instruments would be played in a seating position with their
weight supported by an outside force other than the player’s own
strength. Leblanc should have realized that a well-designed
height adjustable peg mechanism is of utmost importance in improving
their instruments’ playability. However my own experiences do not
seem to suggest that this were the case.
I have slipping peg problems on my three Leblanc horns.
Not only does the screw/nut look cheaply built on them, the mechanism
simply does not provide sufficient grip to hold the peg in place.
It will always slip and at any time. You can imagine the
frustration of having to physically hoist the heavy weight of a bass or
contrabass using solely the awkward leverage of your wrists, when the
peg suddenly slides in the middle of a concert and you are in a
difficult passage. On top of messing up your playing and
concentration, you also run the risk of dropping your instrument and
damaging it. Even a neck strap offers no safe protection against
dropping it due to its heavy weight and awkwardness to handle.
This is a serious problem that I have experienced with my Vito bass,
Leblanc 340 and 352. My solution, short of soldering on a
replacement mechanism, was to simply solder onto the peg a piece of
metal to act as a stop against the peg sliding into the metal
sleeve. This quick fix certainly works, but of course the
adjustability is now compromised. I wish Leblanc would seriously
look into a solution, but from what I have learned from others, this
problem have persisted for years so it’s my guess that Leblanc simply
does not care. It’s too bad that the overall playability of an
otherwise excellent instrument is compromised by the lack of a built-in
safety factor. Doesn’t Leblanc know that majority of these horns are
played by young students, of whom many are careless or unaware in
knowing how to handle horns properly, or inexperienced or not savvy
enough to know what safety steps they should take to prevent an
accident? Oddly enough, I have not experienced similar sliding
peg problems with Selmer basset horns, bass, and contrabass.
Another problem with the Leblanc products is that on certain
models they do not even bother to install an adjustable peg
mechanism. My Vito Bb contrabass lacks one. There is simply
a short metal extrusion at the bottom of the bell; covered with a
rubber top to provide friction against the floor. It’s not
adjustable for height and in any case it’s only half an inch
long. The horn is a straight body model built like a giant bass
clarinet and the extra length requires either a standing or a seated
position on a tall stool. Yet either way the position of the
mouthpiece is set several inches too low to make contact with the mouth
of an average height player. I suppose if you manage to find an
adjustable-height stool, you might be able to narrow this gap of
incompatibility, but for most players who play this model, they
probably play it standing up to avoid having to haul a stool to
concerts and rehearsals, which is another piece of luggage that they
would like to avoid if possible, so the players end up having to find a
riser in order to raise the horn to an ideal height. A book,
brick, or block of wood can all work, but much better still is a
well-designed height adjustable, slip-free, peg mechanism installed on
the back of the bell of back of the lower joint. Not only would
it be easier to handle, but look elegant and professional too. I
also hope Leblanc would address this to boost the professional appeal
of the Vito contrabass, which I feel is underrated.
I hope the above serves some uses to you. To those of you
considering buying any of the four Leblanc metal contras, especially on
eBay, be mentally prepared that you will very likely face the slipping
peg problem sooner or later. Come up with a strategy before your
purchase would save you the headache. My solutions were more
drastic than those offered by others on this list, I soldered a metal
stop on the peg of my 340; and on my 352, I bent the peg so it cannot
physically slide further than at the point where it contacts the metal
sleeve. They worked well for my purpose, but one must think about
the long term implication of such permanent action.
I will post later about the two Bb contrabasses.
Willy
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 14:11:20 -0700
From: "Grant Green"
Subject: Re: [CB] Contra pegs
Hi Willy,
There is a quick fix for that:
- Unscrew the set screw (the one that is supposed to hold the peg) all the
way out;
- Put a drop of solder on the end of the screw, the part that
contacts the peg;
- Replace set screw.
The solder is soft enough that it will conform to the shape of the peg,
and provides enough friction for a secure hold. Rufus did this for my
Leblanc 340, and I haven't had a problem with it since. This works
better than permanently flanging or bending the peg, because sometimes
you end up with a chair of a different height, and you may want to
raise or lower the horn an inch or so.
My Selmer bass clarinet has never had that problem, but has a related one:
tightening the screw enough to hold the peg sometimes results in a
screw that is too tight to undo. Well, at least it is very difficult to
get enough of a grip at times...
Enjoy,
Grant
---------------------------------------------------------
From: "Sung Hwang Wang"
Subject: Re: [CB] Contra pegs
Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 14:34:50 -0700
Thanks Grant, yes, your suggestion will work. I will try
it in the future. Luckily so far the chairs I have had to sit on
have been friendly to me : )
A really good idea is to install a peg set with a built-in
locking mechanism, wherein you find the right height, turns the peg one
way and it locks securely. I have been in contact with Mr.
Benedikt Eppelsheim about this as he builds it for his Bassax and
Tubax. Unfortunately I haven’t been able to follow through, but
he is able and willing to do it (for a fee of course), and I trust his
workmanship to be excellent. The original peg set would need to
be removed (cut, then surfaced sanded) and the new set soldered
on. You need to provide Benedikt with measurements, etc.
He is a great craftman and has been very pleasant to deal with
on emails. I look forward to innovatively designed low clarinet
coming out of him.
In contra we trust.
Willy
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 14:52:54 -0700
From: Craig
Subject: Re: [CB] Contra pegs
What about a piece of threaded rod as the peg (or having a stock
peg threaded) with the clarinet resting on a knurled nut? A second nut
could provide a lock if needed, though I doubt that even the vibration
of the lowest notes would enable the nut to turn. This could also be
used as a safety stop for an existing clamp.
Craig
***End of Contrabass Digest***