Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 17:53:09 -0800
From: "Grant Green"
Subject: [CB] Archives!
Hi,
I've finally gotten around to updating the digest archives: so
far, they're complete up through the end of November, 2004. Will
hopefully bring it current this weekend.
For anyone who was interested in the differences between the Eb
tubax and the Eb contrabass sax, or in Blaise's gig with the Violent
Femmes, I've including a few pictures in the 09/05/04 digest (
http://www.contrabass.com/2004/2004-09-05.html).
Enjoy!
Grant
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Grant Green Contrabass.com
Sarrusophones & contrabass winds
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From: "John Kilpatrick"
Subject: [CB] Silver or Nickel
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 13:46:38 -0000
Why are silver plated clarinet keys better than nickel plated?
Doesn't the silver tarnish and need maintenance?
John K
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Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 07:53:22 -0600
From: Jim Quist
Subject: Re: [CB] Silver or Nickel
> Why are silver plated clarinet keys better than nickel
plated? Doesn't the
> silver tarnish and need maintenance?
Nickel allergy is one reason to avoid nickel.
For others responding to this question, what are the various
platings and materials available, their strengths and weaknesses?
Interesting topic.
Jim
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From: "Gordon Hallgren"
Subject: Re: [CB] Silver or Nickel
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 11:55:42 -0500
if i'm not incorrect i believe nickel also carries a low level
of radiation.
my silverplated Leblanc 340 was overhauled (not replated) and
polished a year ago. i play it frequently and it shows little or no
sign of tarnishing (and i live in Florida - the home of heat and
humidity) even though i occasionally play it outdoors, too. i do wipe
off the finger oils, etc. after each use, which i'm sure helps.
we need a physicist to explain why a heavier metal like brass or
silver would be better on a musical instrument, and what the effect of
coatings like varnish would do to the sound quality of a horn.
cheers to all!
gordon
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Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 18:02:56 +0100
Subject: Re: [CB] Silver or Nickel
From: Klaus Bjerre
> From: "Gordon Hallgren"
> if i'm not incorrect i believe nickel also carries a low level of
radiation.
Does this imply, that a nickel plating will improve the carrying
power of an otherwise dull instrument?
Klaus
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From: "Matthew Stoecker"
Subject: Re: [CB] Silver or Nickel
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 10:29:24 -0800
Everything carries a low level of radiation. Nickel as we know
it is a stable isotope and is not radioactive, but every element has
radioactive forms that are present in some small level in their
non-radioactive counterparts (this is how Carbon-14 dating works-by
measuring the amount of radioactive carbon left in a sample over a
period of time). But, its nothing to worry aobut.
Matthew Stoecker
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Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 10:31:55 -0800
From: "Chuck Guzis"
Subject: Re: [CB] Silver or Nickel
Are we talking about nickel or nickel-silver here?
Nickel-silver (sometimes just called "nickel" or "German Silver" is a
brass mostly made up of copper and zinc with some nickel content.
I wouldn't imagine that it could be much different in application than
plain old yellow brass. Some French horns are made entirely of it
and it finds use in other brasswinds as well as being the material that
many student flutes are constructed of.
Cheers,
Chuck
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Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:38:35 -0500
From: Chip Owen
Subject: Re: [CB] Silver or Nickel
Yes, silver tarnishes. Usually it's a soft tarnish that
can be readily removed. Occasionally it develops a harder tarnish
be even that can be removed without too much effort.
Nickel also tarnishes, or it may be more correct that it
corrodes. This is what causes nickel plating to turn
cloudy. This tarnish is not a soft surface condition and it's not
easy to remove. It's in the metal and requires buffing to
effectively remove. The various polishing creams may brighten
some of it but won't remove all of it. By comparison with silver,
nickel is much more difficult to restore to its proper appearance.
Keep in mind that any buffing operation is a metal removal
process. Using silver polish removes less silver than
buffing. You'll lose more nickel by buffing than silver by
polishing.
Silver can be plated thicker. When nickel gets too thick
it becomes brittle. Attempting to bend the key to adjust it can
cause the plating to crack.
Being able to plate the silver thicker is a definite
asset. Most corrosions occur because of the porosity of the
plating. The corrosive, whether it is environmental or from the
player's hands or whatever, passes through the plating and attacks the
base metal. The only effective way to stop this is to reduce the
porosity by making the plating thicker. That's why some
instrument makers will use "double silver" plating. They're
having the plater put on twice as much.
Nickel wears better than silver. But only when you
consider equal thicknesses. When silver is put on thicker the
difference becomes negligible. When the harder nickel plating
wears through, the softer base metal will erode, cupping the key where
the player's finger contacts it. The edge of the nickel plating
can become sharp to the point of being dangerous! When the softer
silver wears through the rate of wear is more comparable to the wear
rate of the base metal.
Replating silver and nickel involves big differences. To
replate a nickel plated key requires that all of the existing nickel be
removed, the key buffed, and then replated. When silver plating
is in good condition, that is it isn't peeling, new silver plating can
be applied over the existing plating.
The question of replating becomes important when any attempt is
made to repair or modify a key. Changing part of a silver plated
key will require that the plating be removed where the parts will be
silver soldered, but not elsewhere, and the key can be replated with
silver. With nickel, the entire key will need to be stripped, the
repair made, and the key buffed and nickel plated. A silver
plated key is likely to require less effort to fix or alter than a
nickel plated key.
As for how the plating on keys affects the player, the
difference is in how the player's fingers can move over the keys.
Nickel is slipperier than silver. How this affects players is a
matter of personal preference. It's easier to control this
problem on silver than on nickel. There's not much that can be
done to increase the resistance to movement on nickel. To slide
easier on silver the sides of most player's noses provide a never
ending supply of finger lubricant. Plating on the keys isn't
going to make any difference to the tone of the instrument.
As far as plating affecting the tone quality of an instrument,
this is only a factor when the plated part is also a bore
segment. Most instruments don't have a situation where trying
different platings is possible. Bassoon bocals are a notable
exception to this. Otherwise equal bocals with different platings
will have different performance qualities.
Don't waste time asking physicists why the different platings
make a tonal difference. That is, unless you also like to waste
your time listening to physicists perform in concert! The
difference is important to performers. It is how performers
perceive and respond to the differences that is important, not what a
physicist happens to publish in order to justify his position at some
university.
Chip Owen
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Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:58:02 -0500
From: Chip Owen
Subject: Re: [CB] Silver or Nickel
Jim Quist's original question was specifically about nickel
plating and silver plating. Nickel silver is not a plating.
Nickel silver is basically a variation of brass that includes
nickel in the alloy. There are a number of different nickel
silver alloys, just as there are also a number of different brass
alloys. Typically, brass is roughly 2/3 copper and 1/3 zinc, with
a number of other metals present in small percentages. Nickel
silver stays with the 2/3 copper, adds nickel usually in the range of
12-20% and the remainder is mostly zinc plus the other alloying metals.
Chip Owen
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Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:10:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Andrew Phillips
Subject: Re: [CB] Silver or Nickel
I own a 1940 Conn Connqueror alto sax (a very nice horn) and as
some of you know, all of the keys that aren't pearl have silver plate
over them where your fingers touch them. I was told that this was
to create more friction with your fingers on the keys, making them less
likely to slip. I think there's some truth to this. I'm not
sure how this works with nickel.
--Andrew Phillips
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Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 17:12:07 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: gordon hallgren
Subject: Re: [CB] Silver or Nickel
i was pulling some incomplete detail from my memory (getting
older has caused me to have many of these), but it didn't have to do
with background radiation or whatever it's called. there was
something in the news or elsewhere in the media about it a while ago. i
thought it was specific to the nickel, but it may have been a
particular manufacturer or something. can anyone help me out here . . .
please?
gordon
***End of Contrabass Digest***