Contrabass Digest

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1999-05-26

 
Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 18:46:15 -0500
From: John Howell
Subject: Small bassoons
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

I'd appreciate it if someone would clue me in on the small bassoons being
discussed.  The "normal" bassoon is in F with an extension down to low
Bb--that is, the note it produces in the lower register with 7 fingers down
is a low F.  Based on that definition, what key(s) are the small bassoons
in?  A 5th higher (7-fingered small C?)?

Historically, of course, the dulcian or Renaissance bassoon was built in a
complete family, soprano through bass.  As with all the other woodwinds, by
the early 18th century one member of the family had become the favorite or
standard instrument.

John

John & Susie Howell (mailto:John.Howell@vt.edu)
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411   Fax (540) 231-5034
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
 

---------------------------------------------------------

From: CoolStu67@aol.com
Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 19:31:24 EDT
Subject: Re: Small bassoons
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com
<<
 I'd appreciate it if someone would clue me in on the small bassoons being
 discussed.  The "normal" bassoon is in F with an extension down to low
 Bb--that is, the note it produces in the lower register with 7 fingers down
 is a low F.  Based on that definition, what key(s) are the small bassoons
 in?  A 5th higher (7-fingered small C?)?
>>

What the heck are you talking about? Last time I checked middle C played on a
bassoon is also middle C on any concert pitch instrument (mainly flute/oboe).
Since when is a bassoon in F?

Stuart
-Sax/Clarinet
---------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 16:57:37 -0700
From: Grant Green <gdgreen@contrabass.com>
Subject: Re: Small bassoons
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

>I'd appreciate it if someone would clue me in on the small bassoons being
>discussed.  The "normal" bassoon is in F with an extension down to low
>Bb--that is, the note it produces in the lower register with 7 fingers down
>is a low F.  Based on that definition, what key(s) are the small bassoons
>in?  A 5th higher (7-fingered small C?)?

Yes, the bassoon is "in F" in the same way that alto and bass recorders
are: the 7-finger note sounds F, and all music is written at actual
(concert) pitch.  Most of us, however, consider the bassoon to be in C.
The starter bassoons, like the Howarth minibassoon, are described as being
pitched a fourth or fifth above the bassoon (i.e., in G).  The Howarth
instrument is apparently in G, while the Moosman kinder bassoon/fagottino
is in F (a fourth above).  See http://www.howarth.demon.co.uk/minibsn.htm
(minibassoon) and http://www.howarth.demon.co.uk/bsnprice.htm (fagottino).
The tenoroon was pitched in F (a 4th above the bassoon, chorist fagott), if
I remember right.

>Historically, of course, the dulcian or Renaissance bassoon was built in a
>complete family, soprano through bass.  As with all the other woodwinds, by
>the early 18th century one member of the family had become the favorite or
>standard instrument.

I have an old Moeck soprano dulcian, fun for baffling people... ;-)

Grant

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green            gdgreen@contrabass.com
                    http://www.contrabass.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
---------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 17:50:34 -0700
From: Grant Green <gdgreen@contrabass.com>
Subject: Reed Contra FS
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

Just noticed: Music Treasures is now listing a reed contrabass (contrabasse
ad anche) for sale (US$5K), at
http://members.tripod.com/~Music_Treasures/antiwood.htm (scroll down near
the bottom, just above the slide saxophone).

Also, an ophicleide (US$3.5K) at
http://members.tripod.com/~Music_Treasures/antbrass.htm

A Buescher Bb bass sax (US$5.5K) at
http://members.tripod.com/~Music_Treasures/woowindi.htm

Enjoy!

Grant

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green            gdgreen@contrabass.com
                    http://www.contrabass.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
---------------------------------------------------------

From: CoolStu67@aol.com
Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 21:45:09 EDT
Subject: Re: Small bassoons
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com
<<
 Yes, the bassoon is "in F" in the same way that alto and bass recorders
 are: the 7-finger note sounds F, and all music is written at actual
 (concert) pitch.  Most of us, however, consider the bassoon to be in C.
 The starter bassoons, like the Howarth minibassoon, are described as being
 pitched a fourth or fifth above the bassoon (i.e., in G).  The Howarth
 instrument is apparently in G, while the Moosman kinder bassoon/fagottino
 is in F (a fourth above).  See http://www.howarth.demon.co.uk/minibsn.htm
 (minibassoon) and http://www.howarth.demon.co.uk/bsnprice.htm (fagottino).
 The tenoroon was pitched in F (a 4th above the bassoon, chorist fagott), if
 I remember right.
>>

I disagree with this, as this is in remembrance of the 'three different keys
encompassing the clarinet' business a while back. If your theory is correct,
then the extended contrabass clarinet is in Eb until you hit the D key, then
it turns into the key of D. How is this? Well, referring to the 7-fingers
making the bassoon in F, you need 7 fingers to finger low Eb, and 7 fingers
to finger low D. This is probably being too critical, but it's the same thing
you all are doing with the bassoon. The bassoon is curved, and the keys are
positioned to make it work! The fact that seven fingers produce an F does not
matter, it's only coincidence. What makes you think the fact that when the
hand is expended that that identifies the key? If you're thinking about the
tuba/valved brass being in different keys, then you're off. Holding all
valves down or open creates the key because the entire length is being used.
This is not the case for woodwinds. On woodwinds, the holes and keys are
positioned to make the instrument play all notes, and the instrument designer
specifies the key by deciding which notes where would make the most since.
Comments are welcome, encouraged, and expected :)

Stuart
-Sax/Clarinet
---------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 09:38:58 -0400
Subject: Small Oons- difference in fingering systems.
From: mgrogg@juno.com
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

> I'd appreciate it if someone would clue me in on the small bassoons
>being  discussed.  The "normal" bassoon is in F with an extension down to
>low  Bb--that is, the note it produces in the lower register with 7
>fingers down is a low F.  Based on that definition, what key(s) are the small
>bassoons  in?  A 5th higher (7-fingered small C?)?
>>>
>
>What the heck are you talking about? Last time I checked middle C
>played on a  bassoon is also middle C on any concert pitch instrument (mainly
>flute/oboe).  Since when is a bassoon in F?

The Oon family, as most other bass clef instruments  play at concert
pitch.  Middle C is usually middle C, unless you are playing a Bass Viol.
 Most of your woodwinds use 'C' fingerings, flute, saxophone, C soprano,
tenor and great bass recorder, rauschfife, oboes etc.   Pushing down all
the buttons with both hands gives you some derivation of a written C.
The Oons, both Bass and Contrabass, as well as the sopranino, alto and
bass recorder, give you an F when all the fingers are held down.  I
found the bass oon very easy to learn since I had been playing bass
recorder and bass krummhorn for a couple of years before I took my
obligitory double reed series in music school.  Since I play both CC
tuba, and F tuba, the C instruments I group together in one side of my
mind, and the F instruments in the other.  I can relate the fingerings
well even with the differences of tuba vs. obscure woodwind.  I recently
took up french horn which uses C fingerings for the F side of the horn,
and F fingerings for the Bb side of the horn, which was a brief
challenge, but I got over that very quickly.

Since we are discussing oon's, does anyone know what key the Tenor oon
plays in?

Michael Grogg

___________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
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---------------------------------------------------------

From: RBobo123@aol.com
Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 22:48:21 EDT
Subject: Re: Small Oons- difference in fingering systems.
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

Thats interesting, i've always used the word "Bassoon" instead of "Bass oon"
Is that the proper version?
---------------------------------------------------------

From: Ranchu242@aol.com
Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 22:50:04 EDT
Subject: Re: Small Oons- difference in fingering systems.
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

In a message dated 5/25/99 9:48:55 PM Central Daylight Time, RBobo123@aol.com
writes:

<< Thats interesting, i've always used the word "Bassoon" instead of "Bass oon"
 Is that the proper version? >>

I was wondering about the name!  WOW! that is enlightening.

Roger
---------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 07:50:33 -0400
From: arehow <arehow@vgernet.net>
Subject: Re: Reed Contra FS
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

These prices are absurd.  I bought my reed contrabass from an American
dealer for $1500 in 1992, spent a couple Franklins on an overhaul and a
similar amount for a wheeled drum case to put it in.  My ophis cost me
$1700 from France for a Charles Sax (Adolphe's dad), and $3000 for a
stunning specimen from a Parisian maker.  This was described by one
expert as an exceedingly fine specimen, and I must agree.  My PanAm/Conn
bass Saxophone was $600 plus about $500 for the overhaul and case in
1990.

One of the disadvantages of our present global village is that a sucker
always exists SOMEWHERE.  Honest price for honest value in antique
woodwind instruments has in the space of only a few years been replaced
by the rankest greed.

Robert Howe

Grant Green wrote:

> Just noticed: Music Treasures is now listing a reed contrabass (contrabasse
> ad anche) for sale (US$5K),

> Also, an ophicleide (US$3.5K) at

> A Buescher Bb bass sax (US$5.5K) at
---------------------------------------------------------

From: RBobo123@aol.com
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 08:26:48 EDT
Subject: Subcontrabassoon?
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

I've heard it mentioned, and have found out that it holds the Lowest
Instrument Record, but i was wondering.  DOes anybody have any pictures?  Or
better yet, does anybody want to sell me one (Just Kidding, If they still
exist they'd be WAY too expensive for me).  Well, any info would be
appreciated. Thanks
---------------------------------------------------------

From: Michael Cogswell <Michael_Cogswell@gtsi.com>
Subject: RE: Small bassoons
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 10:25:28 -0400
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

OK, so now I'm getting confused.  A Bb clarinet sounds a Bb when playing a
written C.  A bass clarinet sounds a Bb an octave lower, and a contrabass
clarinet a Bb two octaves lower when they play a written C.  Many other
members of the clarinet family are identified by the note they sound when
playing a written C.

So, does a bassoon (bass oon?) sound an F or a C (or something else
entirely) when playing a written C?

MikeC

---------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 09:24:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Adam Kent-Isaac <lokibassoon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Subcontrabassoon?
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com
Dear Rbobo:

Subcontrabassoons are rare but a sufficient duplicate can be built by
joining the tubing from several different insruments, removing the keys
and filling the holes. Two contrabassoons joined to one instrument
would be a subcontrbabassoon. UNless you want to go to Germany and
spend thousands of dollars on one.

-Adam

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

---------------------------------------------------------

From: CoolStu67@aol.com
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:05:48 EDT
Subject: Re: Subcontrabassoon?
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com
<<
 I've heard it mentioned, and have found out that it holds the Lowest
 Instrument Record, but i was wondering.  DOes anybody have any pictures?  Or
 better yet, does anybody want to sell me one (Just Kidding, If they still
 exist they'd be WAY too expensive for me).  Well, any info would be
 appreciated. Thanks
>>

The subcontrabassoon does not exist, as we [the list] deduced several months
ago. Also, the octocontrabass clarinet to low D holds the lowest instrument
record.

Stuart
-Sax/Clarinet
---------------------------------------------------------

From: CoolStu67@aol.com
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:07:58 EDT
Subject: Re: Small bassoons
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com
<<
 So, does a bassoon (bass oon?) sound an F or a C (or something else
 entirely) when playing a written C?
>>

When a bassoon plays a C it sounds C. This is way the bassoon is not in F, it
is in C. Simple as that!

Stuart
-Sax/Clarinet
---------------------------------------------------------

From: Ranchu242@aol.com
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:49:29 EDT
Subject: Re: Small bassoons
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

In a message dated 5/26/99 12:08:59 PM Central Daylight Time,
CoolStu67@aol.com writes:

<< When a bassoon plays a C it sounds C. This is way the bassoon is not in F, it
 is in C. Simple as that!
  >>

I agree with you, to a point.  ;)  When a basson fingers a c, it plays a c,
so it is in 'c'.  However, in the recorder world, this naming isn't correct.
All recorders are in 'c', according to this naming method, but Sopranino,
Alto, and Bass recorders are considered to be in 'F'.  This in not because
they play in the key of F, but because the fingerings start (lowest note)
with an F.  I don't know why they do it this way, but this is how it is done.
 This might be the source of confusion.  Hope this helps!

Roger
---------------------------------------------------------

From: "Rick Izumi" <izumithune@email.msn.com>
Subject: German made Contrabass
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 11:13:33 -0700
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

Grant

Has any one followed up on the German made contrabass sax that Tommie
Naslund spoke about?

Rick
izumithune@msn.com

---------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 14:35:27 -0700
Subject: Re: Small bassoons
From: mgrogg@juno.com
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

> So, does a bassoon (bass oon?) sound an F or a C (or something else
> entirely) when playing a written C?

>When a bassoon plays a C it sounds C. This is way the bassoon is not
>in F, it is in C. Simple as that!

You are confusing Treble clef transposing instruments with Bass clef
instruments.  All of your Clarinets and Saxophones read treble clef
transposed parts.

Depending on the fundimental of the instrument, you can have an Eb or Bb
instrument, and with the addition of extra keys, some extra notes below
the normal are sometimes available.  But a written C on either one is
fingered the same.

With bass Clef instruments the parts are (usually) written at concert
pitch, and the player sorts out the fingerings.  If you walk up to a
bassoon and play a "C" scale using your best saxophone fingerings, you
will have played a scale in F.
 

MG

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
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---------------------------------------------------------

From: CoolStu67@aol.com
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 15:34:14 EDT
Subject: Re: Small bassoons
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com
<<
 With bass Clef instruments the parts are (usually) written at concert
 pitch, and the player sorts out the fingerings.  If you walk up to a
 bassoon and play a "C" scale using your best saxophone fingerings, you
 will have played a scale in F.
>>

Now you're confusing brass instruments with woodwinds. The brasses are able
to get their key this way because, anyway, the entire tube length is used.
This is not the case with woodwinds. As I stated before, woodwinds are
designed to use the entire tube length and the builder positions the
holes/keys to make the holes make since! It is purely by coincidence that
7-fingers on the bassoon plays an F.

Stuart
-Sax/Clarinet
---------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 15:15:44 -0700
From: Grant Green <gdgreen@contrabass.com>
Subject: RE: Small bassoons
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

>OK, so now I'm getting confused.  A Bb clarinet sounds a Bb when playing a
>written C.  A bass clarinet sounds a Bb an octave lower, and a contrabass
>clarinet a Bb two octaves lower when they play a written C.  Many other
>members of the clarinet family are identified by the note they sound when
>playing a written C.

Well, there are "transposing" instruments, and "non-transposing"
instruments.  For non-transposing instruments, the music is written at
concert pitch (with minor exceptions).  Most bass clef instruments are
"non-transposing", even where one has to learn several different sets of
fingerings (as with tubas of different keys).  Other non-transposing
instruments include: all strings and keyboards, recorders, crumhorns,
cornamusen, racketts, and the like.  The minor exception is that several
instruments transpose by an octave, but are usually still considered
"non-transposing" instruments (e.g., string bass and contrabassoon).

With all "transposing instruments", the key of the instrument is whatever
note sounds when the instrument is playing written C.  If you play "C" on
an alto clarinet, the concert pitch that sounds is Eb.  Same applies to
trumpets and horns, with variations.  Trumpets and cornets are typically
written in Bb (at least in band music), with the ocassional Eb cornet part.
However, it appears to be customary for a trumpeter to use Bb, C, D, or Eb
instruments for any part, as long as the horn produces the desired timbre.
An orchestral part may call for D trumpets, but be played on Bb trumpet, or
Bb piccolo trumpet, at the player's discretion.  Orchestral horn parts are
notorious for odd transpositions, with horn in E, F, G, Ab, etc., all
universally played on F horn (or more commonly on the F/Bb double horn, or
Bb horn, or Bb/Falto horn...).  The odd horn keys stem from the days before
horns had valves, and one played the parts on natural horns, with the
available partials dictated by the key of the horn (which could be changed
by using crooks of varying lengths between the horn and the mpc).

It is now really a matter of convention, an agreement between those who
write the notes, and those who play them.  Decades (centuries?) ago, the
convention arose that for transposing instruments, the written notes would
reflect the fingerings rather than the notes sounded, with the composer
and/or arranger taking responsibility for making sure that the notes
written resulted in the desired notes.

Why not just learn concert pitch?  When the clarinet was invented, it was
difficult to play satisfactorily in certain keys (because some accidentals
just didn't sound well on the instrument, lacking the full set of modern
keys).  To overcome the problem, soprano clarinets were available in A, Bb,
B and C.  Obviously, a passage written to play easily on the A clarinet is
going to be *different* when played on the Bb or B clarinet.  The presto
scales and arpeggios that are "in C" on the Bb clarinet are "in C# or Db"
on the A clarinet...  On modern instruments, the addition of several pounds
of keys has reduced the need for multiple instruments in different keys -
and multiple instruments are used mainly to extend the range.

I haven't studied medieval and renaissance music enough to know for sure,
but I *suspect* that dulcian and shawm were all considered
"non-transposing", like recorders.  If one played soprano shawm ("in C"), a
different set of fingerings was used for the alto shawm ("in F"), but one
always played the concert pitch.  In fact, most music surviving from the
medieval and renaissance periods did not indicate parts for particular
instruments: just "parts", leaving the choice of instrument entirely up to
the performer.  A quartet might be performed by AATB crumhorns one day, and
shawm + 3 sackbuts the next, depending on the ocassion.

>So, does a bassoon (bass oon?) sound an F or a C (or something else
>entirely) when playing a written C?

The term is "bassoon", and it sounds exactly as written (non-transposing).
I'll leave the "oons" for another post...

Grant

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green            gdgreen@contrabass.com
                    http://www.contrabass.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
---------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 15:32:36 -0700
From: Grant Green <gdgreen@contrabass.com>
Subject: Re: Small bassoons
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

> I'm new here.Does that mean that all of my saxophones are in Bb because
>their lowest note is that.What if I had a Bari Sax with a low A?Is it in
>A?  Thanks.

If you have only Bb soprano, Bb tenor, and/or Bb bass, then yes, all your
saxophones are in Bb ;-)  Saxophones are "transposing" instruments, and
their key is set by convention.

C: C melody, C soprano, the possibly apocryphal C bass (all pretty much retired)
Bb: Bb soprano, tenor, bass, sopranissimo
Eb: sopranino, alto, bari, contrabass
F: F sopranino (extinct), F mezzosoprano, Conn-O-Sax, the possibly apocryphal F baritone

Grant

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green            gdgreen@contrabass.com
                    http://www.contrabass.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
---------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mats 0ljare" <oljare@hotmail.com>
Subject: Percussion instruments
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 15:43:10 PDT
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com

I need to know somewhere i can ask about rare percussion instruments,since i
want to find out a couple of things:

The biggest/lowest cymbal ever made
The biggest/lowest cymbal in common production/use
The largest drums(excluding bass drums of any kind)
The largest gongs
etc.

Anybody else here interested in finding out about this?

======================================================================
Mats Öljare ( oljare@hotmail.com ) "Butikerna i den här gallerian är
Woodwindist,composer,technician,       av undermålig kvalitet.De ska
author,director,intermedia artist          förmodligen bort allihop."
Eskilstuna,Sweden                   Bo"Buller&Bång"Lönn,föreståndare
http://www.angelfire.com/mo/oljare        för Gallerian i Eskilstuna
 

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