Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 18:48:29 -0400
From: Jim Katz
Subject: Re: [CB] Flutter-tonguing
Ah, don't bother. Haven't you heard the old saying:
"Fluttery will get you nowhere."
> Subject: [CB] Flutter tonguing
> From: Robert Howe <arehow@charter.net>
> Reply-To: contra-new2@contrabass.com
> While on the topic of insightul teachers, can anyone
suggest an efffective
> way to learn flutter tonguing? I'm 48 years old and have
played woodwinds
> for 35 years, yet I have never been able to do this.
I can make a guttural
> "R" in the throat and bring it up to the front of the
tongue, and over the
> past year have extended this to the point that I can
flutter tongue pretty
> effectively in the low register of the alto recorder.
But with upper
> register notes, or on an oboe or clarinet, the stronger
wind stream dampens
> out my fluttering.
>
> Suggestions?
>
> Ciao
>
> Robert Howe
> Hi all,
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 22:57:11 +0000
From: David Bobroff
Subject: [CB] fluttering
Robert Howe wrote:
>Curiously, I also lack the ability to make a tube out of my
protruded
>tongue. My two oldest sons can do this, and both of
them can flutter (on
>trombone and trumpet).
The inability to do this, rolling the tongue, is genetic
(recessive, I think). So is the inability to flutter tongue, or
roll R's (as is done in Spanish, Italian, Slavic languages,
etc.). Whether the tongue rolling trait is the same as the
flutter/rolling R trait, I don't know. If you can't roll your R's
it is possible that you simply can't do it just as you can't roll your
tongue (i.e. make a tube out of it).
-David
---------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lelia Loban"
Subject: [CB] Flutter tonguing
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 20:51:36 -0400
Robert Howe wrote,
>Can anyone describe an efffective way to learn flutter
tonguing? I'm 48 years old and have
>played woodwinds for 35 years, yet I have never been able to
do this. I can make a
>guttural "R" in the throat and bring it up to the front of
the tongue. Over the past year,
>in an attempt to learn the technique, I have by diligent
practice (mostly while driving alone)
>extended this to the point that I can flutter tongue pretty
effectively in the low register of
>the alto recorder. But with upper register notes, or
on a hautboy or oboe, the stronger wind
>stream dampens out my fluttering.
>Curiously, I also lack the ability to make a tube out of my
protruded tongue. My two oldest sons
>can do this, and both of them can flutter (on trombone and
trumpet).
Clarification: Is making the tongue tube-shaped something
you've tried to do as part of the flutter-tongue technique? I
don't think it's possible to flutter-tongue with a tube-shaped
tongue. Also, I would forget all about the gutteral "R" in the
throat. The whole mouth (tongue, lips, teeth, everything) is in a
different position for a throat "R" than it is for speaking the Mexican
Spanish rolled "R" at the front of the mouth, which is the position
that works for me to flutter- tongue.
Without using any mouthpiece, try the Spanish rolled "R" first
by making your tongue thin and flat. Think of a thin sheet of
paper rustling in a breeze. Touch the tip of your tongue loosely
to the ridge of gums behind your upper teeth, without pointing your
tongue at all. Leave the whole tongue relaxed, including the
tip. Blow air with your tongue in that position and the rest of
your mouth in the position for the letter "R" and hear and feel what
happens. Don't try to flutter your tongue as a muscle. Let the
air stream flutter it as if it weighed nothing and had no strength.
Imagine it's paper. Fluttering is one of those "breakthrough"
skills: Once you can do it, it will seem easy all of a sudden.
Once you can get a good rolling "R" going, try it with various
mouthpieces. I've never tried on an oboe, but this technique
works for me on clarinet, sax and recorder. Hope this helps.
Lelia Loban
(being miaowed at for making funny noises while typing...)
---------------------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: [CB] [CB Digest]
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 08:17:10 +0100
From: "Francis Firth"
Dear John and CB-List,
Did anyone get the item number of the bass tarogato auction?
I would have liked to look at it but now it is over (I was away
at the weekend) I can only see it if I have the item number.
Thanks,
Francis Firth
---------------------------------------------------------
From: Judy
Subject: RE: [CB] Flutter tonguing
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 10:14:52 -0400
Can anyone flutter tongue on oboe? I can't. I can
flutter tongue with ease on flute. In contemporary flute music,
flutter-tonguing is called for occasionally. I've never seen a
marking for flutter tonguing on an oboe part. I'm just wondering
if, in playing oboe, there is enough air passing over the tongue to
allow it to flutter. The stream of air for oboe is very small but
the speed of air is pretty fast -- maybe it can work. I have
tried and quickly determined I can't do it -- but never spent any time
trying to develop the skill -- never had a reason to. The
free-flowing air in flute playing also makes double tonguing very
easy. This is another flute skill I find difficult to transfer to
oboe. I can double tongue on oboe, but not well -- I find it much
more difficult than on flute -- easy on flute! I think this is
due to the smaller column of air and also to restriction of air in the
throat in oboe playing (it is easy to make the "ka" in the throat with
free-flowing, unrestricted air, as is flute playing. The other
part of the double tonguing -- the "tu" -- also makes this easier on
flute because the tongue touches the roof of the mouth for "tu,"
whereas the tongue touches the tip of the reed in oboe tonguing.
So on flute, you simply say "tu-ka-tu-ka-tu-ka" without engaging the
vocal cords and you are double tonguing. Something different is
happening on oboe - the tongue does not go to the roof of the mouth for
"tu," but, rather, to the tip of the reed.
Judy
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:26:56 -0500
From: "Gregg Bailey"
Subject: [CB] genetics: rolling r vs. tongue tube
While I can roll my r's, I cannot make a tube out of my
tongue. So, the genetics for these two traits must be independent
of one another.
-Gregg
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 08:38:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Gennrich
Subject: Re: [CB] genetics: rolling r vs. tongue tube and
fluttering
--- Gregg Bailey wrote:
> While I can roll my r's, I cannot make a tube out of my
tongue. So, the
> genetics for these two traits must be independent of one
another.
I agree completely! I'm "tongue rolling challenged" by
genetics, but can trill RRRRRs with the best of em. I've never
heard any suggestion that trilling is genetic.
Lip buzzes and tongue trills are part of the warmups we do for
Savannah Choral Society. I find trills very simple, but the
buzzes without a cup-like MP (brass?) are all but impossible!
The suggestion of considering the tongue to be near weightless,
floating on air and fluttering in the breeze of the breath, creates an
excellent picture of what occurs with flutter-tonguing. It's NOT
a muscle exercise, but one of relaxation.
My best to all.
Paul Gennrich
***End of Contrabass Digest***