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2002-05-11

 
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 23:15:49 GMT
Subject: [CB] standard fingering rather than 1st plus 2nd?
From: go_oaw


Normally on a brass instrument, we tune the third valve so that the combination 1-3 is perfectly in tune. Then 2-3 is a bit flat because the basic tube plus the second valve is a bit shorter than the tube plus the first valve, which is the tube length the 3 valve is tuned for. Also the combination 123 is a bit sharp.

In perfect theory.

Which is what the compensating system is designed for.

Unfortunatly - Reality is that conical pipes a very hard to tune everywhere.  The error is smaller than very, lips can move the note to the right place. 3 alone is a useful alternate fingering.  And given the  common existence of a 1 1/2 partial on many conical brass, three valves are chromatic to the nominal pedal + valves. and the bottom of the BBb tuba, chromatically connected through a low Eb, which is open, is EE , about 20 Hz.  With 3 valves.  Below this lung energy is limiting.

Oscar

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Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 23:40:54 GMT
Subject: [CB] Clarion and Clarionette
From: go_oaw


My rememberance is that the Clarion was loud.  Some people did not like it for this reason, so when an alternate became available that was quieter, they gave them the Clarion parts and called the instrument the Clarionette, the diminutive again.  thes the roots of the previous posts.    Oscar


---------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jay and Adrienne Easton"
Subject: Re: [CB] six fingers
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 18:39:36 -0700


>and (b) an F# in [the oboe's] "natural" scale (L123 R1 plays F#, not the F
>a flute or sax-player would expect).

-Ever since I learned oboe, I've thought of the fingering in terms of a
-six-holed pennywhistle.  With that in mind, the oboe is basically a D
-instrument, just like the standard pennywhistle in D.  The tonic is in R3,
-the second or supertonic is in R2, and the major 3rd or Mediant is in R1.
I
-prefer this kind of thinking as opposed to R1 being a sharped fourth
-interval to a tonic of C.
-Gregg

Interesting point- I had always felt the "D" pennywhistle should be considered a "C" instrument since it's nontransposing, and the "C" whistle should be "Bb", etc., since instruments are key-named for their transposition rather than their fundamental scale.  Otherwise the trombone would be in Bb, and bassoon would be in F.  Or by your system, in G, since
it really plays a g-major scale with the same fingerings that give oboe a D major scale.  Non-Boehm clarinets also fit into the system you propose-  my Albert-system in C plays B-natural with the same fingering as Bb on a Boehm instrument, and Bb is a cross fingering, just like on bassoon.
Hmmm...
Jay
www.jayeaston.com


---------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 00:38:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Phillips
Subject: Re: [CB] six fingers


> Interesting point- I had always felt the "D" pennywhistle should be considered a "C" instrument since it's
> nontransposing, and the "C" whistle should be "Bb", etc., since instruments are key-named for their
> transposition rather than their fundamental scale.  Otherwise the trombone
> would be in Bb, and bassoon would be in F.  Or by your system, in G, since
> it really plays a g-major scale with the same fingerings that give oboe a D
> major scale.  Non-Boehm clarinets also fit into the system you propose-  my
> Albert-system in C plays B-natural with the same fingering as Bb on a Boehm
> instrument, and Bb is a cross fingering, just like on bassoon.
> Hmmm...
> Jay
> www.jayeaston.com

But here's a question for you - should all recorders
be considered C instruments since all of the music
they read is in C?
                               --Andrew Phillips

---------------------------------------------------------

From: "John Kilpatrick"
Subject: Re: [CB] [CB Digest]
Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 10:34:47 +0100


> >the oboe is somewhat different, having (a) no thumb hole,
>
> Of course, neither does the sax.  However, I think I know why.  I was told
> by an instrument repairman that Adolphe sax was thinking in terms of brass
> fingering when he designed the sax.  Therefore, in BOTH hands for the sax,
> the middle finger alone lowers the note by a half step; the first finger
> alone lowers the note by a whole step, and the first PLUS second finger is
> the minor third.  This corresponds to brass fingering.  So, there is no
> thumb hole.  After all, he WAS trying to create a woodwind-brass hybrid, so
> he utilized the tube design of the brass as well as the fingering system, as
> much as it would translate to woodwind fingering.

Goodness, how obvious! I'd not noticed this neat logic of
left-hand=right-hand-brass; thank, Gregg.

< I don't know if you've ever noticed, but the
> 3rd valve is the same as the first plus second.  I suppose it would be more
> awkward to use the 3rd valve alone in passages.  Otherwise, why wouldn't it
> be the standard fingering rather than 1st plus 2nd???

But I thought the point was that the 3rd valve loop is not equal to 1st+2nd,
but around 12% longer, so that it correctly adds a a minor third to a tube
length already lowered by a whole tone (6th root of 2 = 1.1225).

John



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Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 13:58:27 -0500
From: sperrin
Subject: [CB] brass valves

>This same person explained to me the reason that this system is even so on a
>brass instrument.  He pointed out that the most common interval in a
>diatonic scale is the whole step.  Since the index finger is the strongest
>finger, the first valve is the whole step.  He said that the half step is
>the next most common interval, and since the middle finger is the
>next-to-strongest finger, the second valve became the half step.  The only
>other valve interval that was necessary in order to complete the set of
>combinations within the interval of a fifth (which is, of course, the
>largest interval that a brass instrument is designed to play without a valve
>change, ignoring the fundamental range of the horn) is the minor third,
>which became the 3rd valve.

This is a nice theory, but I think it has two major flaws.  First, from what
I've read, the reason the 2nd valve is used for the half step is because it
requires the least tubing to be attached to the valve in the middle, which
doesn't have much room for extra tubing.  Second, from what I remember of my
ergonomics classes, most people have the most strength in their middle finger,
not their index finger.

Scott Perrin

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