Contrabass Digest

2002-05-06

Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 16:06:19 -0700
From: "Chuck Guzis"
Subject: Re: [CB] Gerard Hoffnung


 On 5/5/2002,  Craig Durham  wrote:
>So brasswinds *are* also in the nomenclature blender. Not quite as
>confusing as woodwinds, though. I could re-introduce organ rank /
>speaking length to the mix, but I'm not going to go there again. :-)

There ARE indeed some confusing aspects.  The noble Eb member of the  saxhorn family is called variously "alto horn" or "peck horn" in the USA;  or "tenor horn" in the UK.  But "tenor horn" in the USA and the Continent refers to the saxhorn (or sometimes the "oval euphonium") that is sometimes referred to as a "baritone",  not be confused with the large bore, more conical British euphonium, which is sometimes known as a "baritone" here in the US.  Not to be confused with the European "baryton" which can refer to a tenor horn (the Bb baritone variety, not the Eb alto variety). 

Aw heck, you get the idea....

BTW, don't the Italians call the Bb soprano clarinet a "contralto".  Seems to me that I've seen that notation...

Cheers,
Chuck


---------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 01:41:03 +0200
Subject: Re: [CB] Gerard Hoffnung
From: Klaus Bjerre


on 06.05.02 1:06, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> On 5/5/2002,  Craig Durham  wrote:
>> So brasswinds *are* also in the nomenclature blender.

Chuck Guzis replied:

> There ARE indeed some confusing aspects.  The noble Eb member of the saxhorn
> family is called variously "alto horn" or "peck horn" in the USA; or "tenor
> horn" in the UK.  But "tenor horn" in the USA and the Continent refers to the
> saxhorn (or sometimes the "oval euphonium") that is sometimes referred to as a
> "baritone",  not be confused with the large bore, more conical British
> euphonium, which is sometimes known as a "baritone" here in the US.  Not to be
> confused with the European "baryton" which can refer to a tenor horn (the Bb
> baritone variety, not the Eb alto variety).
> Aw heck, you get the idea....

If Chuck made you get the idea, I can make you loose it again:

http://www.chisham.com/tips/bbs/jul2001/messages/61604.html

will lead you to one of my "texts" on this topic. If I have  abused your attention with it before, I can only say: Sorry!

A maybe  somewhat more serious text was given in another context discussing Czech rotary low brasses. A partial quoting of myself says:

(Start of quote):

Where I come from, we only us the term "euphonium" for upright piston valved
instruments founded on the British tradition as made by Besson and
Boosey&Hawkes. And later on also by French, Swiss, German, and Japanese
makers. 3 and 4 valve non-compensating instruments are accepted for students
and for marching, but a "real" euphonium has 4 valves and is compensating.

Wide bore rotary instruments, oval (that is "æg" = "egg" over here) or
straight, sound the same and are both called Bariton (German)/baryton
(Danish). They are always seen as coming out of a German or Central European
tradition. They are NEVER called euphoniums here. The same goes for Germany.

During the transition 4 decades back of the Danish band tradition from old
continental to British brass band style one could see these instruments used
on euphonium parts. One hardly ever sees that any more. The last time I saw
that happen was in a smaller provincial brass band in 1998.

Danish bands since 1989 consider Czechia a popular destination for their
band tours. Probably because our currency takes us a long way there. They
often buy "eggs" there. Hardly ever to be used in their legit playing. But
"Tyrolermusik" is increasing in popularity, so many bands have a German
subsection, which often is a vital part of band economics. One major band in
Aarhus, Tonica, for years has earned most, if not all, of its funding by
running a beer and dance tent during the 10 day long late summer town
festival.

USanians might have been used to put any tenor/baritone range conical
brasses in first the "baritone" and now the "euphonium" melting pot.

Over here we have at least 6 categories within that range:

Euphonium

Baryton, as told of above

Fransk baryton (always pistoned), French baritone/Saxhorn basse en Si bemol
(having Belgian, Dutch, and even Czech/German clones)

Amerikansk baryton, US baritone

Tenorhorn, German rotary tenorhorn, bored as the British baritone, but with
more volume in the bell, less focused sound

Bariton ( in this context a hybride term linguistically), British baritone

And in my personal vocabulary there is one more, now extinct, category:

Belgisk tenorhorn, Belgian baritone, much smaller in all bore dimensions
than its British equivalent, yet clearly conical. As a quite young boy I
often heard one of my later teachers, Karlo Nielsen, play extremely clear
and well carried tenor counter melodies on such an instrument, when the
regional military band played street concerts in my then hometown. The make
was Mahillon. (end of quote)


Klaus

---------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 17:07:34 -0700
From: "Chuck Guzis"
Subject: Re: [CB] Gerard Hoffnung


 On 5/6/2002,  Klaus Bjerre  wrote:

(a long, nicely detailed description of the Bb valved brasses known on the continent).

...I should have perhaps also mentioned the now-extinct Bb bass saxhorn, which has the same fundamental key as the tenor and baritone members of  the saxhorn clan.  One sees the notation for this and the other instruments often on Civil War-era band scores.  Not to be confused with the Eb bass saxhorn, which has the same basic fundamental pitch as the modern Eb tuba.  So, I think the brasses perhaps have the most unusual situation where the tenor, baritone and bass members of the same family all have the same fundamental pitch.

As I said, "You know what I mean..."

Cheers,
Chuck


---------------------------------------------------------

From: Opusnandy
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 00:20:32 EDT
Subject: Re: [CB] Gerard Hoffnung


In a message dated 5/5/02 11:42:02 AM, mgrogg writes:

<< Has there ever been a soprano tuba?

Yes,

Known as the Fluba.  It is a rewrapped flugle horn. >>

There may be two people who have used the tern "fluba", but the only fluba
I've ever heard of is a contrabass flugelhorn that was discussed on this list
a while back.  There is a picture of it on my web site at
http://www.angelfire.com/music3/cmusicprod/samples.html
I refer to it as a contrabass flugelhorn at my site, but the inventor calls
it a "fluba".  It is essentially a BBb contrabass tuba with the tubing and
valves reconfigured into a giant flugelhorn shape.  In contrast, any
flugelhorn is really a soprano tuba; just in a bell-front configuration. 
There have been flugels reconfigured into tuba shapes (I have seen pictures
of them).  Perhaps the inventor of this type of instrument also came up with
the name "fluba".  Interesting, if that is the case, how the same name was
thought up for two instruments at opposite ends of the spectrum (range-wise).

<<I suppose
if you wanted to waste some time and money, you could rewrap an Eb
cornet and make a Sopranino Tuba.>>

Well, this is nitpicking here, but, technically, you would have to rewrap an
Eb flugelhorn, not a cornet, to get a true sopranino tuba (proportionately).

Jonathan Carreira
---------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 07:01:32 +0200
Subject: Re: [CB] Gerard Hoffnung
From: Klaus Bjerre


on 06.05.02 6:20, Opusnandy wrote:
> There may be two people who have used the tern "fluba", but the only fluba
> I've ever heard of is a contrabass flugelhorn that was discussed on this list
> a while back.  There is a picture of it on my web site at

> http://www.angelfire.com/music3/cmusicprod/samples.html

> I refer to it as a contrabass flugelhorn at my site, but the inventor calls
> it a "fluba".  It is essentially a BBb contrabass tuba with the tubing and
> valves reconfigured into a giant flugelhorn shape.

<http://www.bassethoundmusic.com/fluba.html>

tells, that the instrument on your site is in F, not in contrabass BBb.

> In contrast, any
> flugelhorn is really a soprano tuba; just in a bell-front configuration.
> There have been flugels reconfigured into tuba shapes (I have seen pictures
> of them). 

The problem with rewrapping flugelhorns comes from a common structural trait
with all piston and rotary flugelhorn models, but for one now discontinued
version from DEG. They all have tuning leadpipes, which call for straight
leadpipes. No brass instrument is probably so consequently conical from the
valve cluster right to the rim of the bell as is the flugelhorn

Klaus

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