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Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 15:55:44 -0700
From: Grant Green
Subject: Re: [CB] tarogato and Sousaphone
>>I think that Sarrus is credited only with providing an idea or
>>suggestion to make the sarrusophone, while Gautrot did all the actual
>>design and construction. It is noteworthy that Gautrot's name
>>appears on the sarrusophone patents, while Sarrus's name does not.
>>
>
>Isn't this similar to the way John Philip Sousa provided the idea for the
>sousaphone and it was probably created mostly by J.W. Pepper?Probably... I always forget if the "rain catcher" sousaphone was the
model he suggested, or if he suggested modifying the rain catcher to
the modern form. BTW, is there any other difference between
sousaphone and helicon, other than the direction (and bending) of the
bell? How much does that last bend before the bell make to playing,
intonation, etc.? Never having played sousaphone, and having scant
experience with tuba...Grant
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green http://www.contrabass.com
Professional Fool -> http://www.mp3.com/ProFools
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---------------------------------------------------------From: "Owen P-S"
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:05:21 -0400
Subject: Re: [CB] yet another sax question
Does any one know what the difference is between the common saxophones used today and the type suited for orchestral playing which are hard to find (i.e. c-melody tenor)? I mean structural design, sound, and playability. >Any help is much appreciated. Thanks.
Owen
As far as I know, the original "orchestral" saxophones (F sopranino, C soprano, F alto, C tenor, F bari, C bass) differed from the "band" saxophones of that time only in key. The original orchestral versions would probably have been "early" saxophones, with two >separate register keys (rather than today's single, automatic octave key), range to low B natural, keywork to high Eb (I'm not sure when the extension to high F happened), etc. I understand that the shape of the bore was also somewhat different (for all saxophones), manufacturers having altered the bore to project more in jazz. C and F saxophones were made after that period as well, although not necessarily for orchestral use. It is not difficult to find C sopranos and C melody saxophones today (although I don't think anyone is currently making new saxophones in C). The "F mezzosoprano" is, of course, a different matter... My guess is that they're all pretty much of equal quality with their contemporariesPerhaps Paul Cohen would like to weigh in here?
Grant
No wonder I've seen so many c-melodys for sale. How would you tell a good quality c tenor from a below standards one? Also, are the F and C family saxophones valuable or collectible, or are they just considered old junk?
Owen---------------------------------------------------------
From: PaulC135
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:51:06 EDT
Subject: Re: [CB] [CB Digest]
In a message dated 8/30/01 10:48:56 PM, the list writes:
<< The "F mezzosoprano" is,
of course, a different matter... My guess is that they're all pretty
much of equal quality with their contemporaries (keeping in mind how
saxophones have evolved over the decades), with the exception of the
C melody. Many C melody saxophones were made for the amateur market
that were decidedly below the general standard of the day.
>>There exist two kinds of F saxophones. In the 19th century several
manufacturers made F altos that were essentially smaller altos in the key of
F. In the late 1920s (1927-28) Conn brought out their amazing F mezzo
soprano. They considered it in a different and new classification, with a
sound giving a higher, more silvery lead quality with an alto-like range.
Its bore is more related to soprano, with the range related to an alto. The
special mouthpiece designed for the instrument is essential for its true tone
to sound. Over-size soprano mouthpieces or under-size alto mouthpieces,
while they might fit and make the instrument workable, distort the sound to
ways fundamentally unintended by the Conn company. A few months later, Conn
introduced the truly amazing Conn-0-Sax, a straight F mezzo with an extended
key range (low A to high G) and a bulbous extension at the bottom. This
strange combination was advertised as "Looks like a Hecklephone, Plays like a
Saxophone and Sounds like an English Horn." No hype here, as it has all of
these qualities, and is one of the finest instruments in my collection. These
were made for less than a year and are very rare. (I'm next performing it
with a piece with organ at Rutgers on Sept. 21).
As for the C melodies, they were the most popular saxes in the 1920s.
Instruments made by the better companies, as in Buescher or Conn, are often
excellent instruments of professional quality. Those made by lesser
companies or stencils carry the legitmate stigma of amateur instruments.
Incidentally, one of the rarest saxophones in my collection is a Selmer Paris
C melody with a factory installed range to low A. Most amazing!
Paul Cohen
---------------------------------------------------------Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:56:44 -0400
From: Michael C Grogg
Subject: [CB] tarogato and SousaphoneThe model J P Sousa inspired was the raincatcher. He disliked the
helicon because it was too directional, and wanted a broad sound to float
over the whole band. It is somewhat ironic that later on they put
another bend in the bell and made the thing directional again. Playing
wise the helicon is easier to play in tune because it lacks the last two
90 degree bends in the tubing.Michael Grogg
Tubist, Heliconist, and occasionaly Sousaphonist.> >Isn't this similar to the way John Philip Sousa provided the idea
> for the sousaphone and it was probably created mostly by J.W. Pepper?
>
> Probably... I always forget if the "rain catcher" sousaphone was
> the model he suggested, or if he suggested modifying the rain catcher to
> the modern form. BTW, is there any other difference between
> sousaphone and helicon, other than the direction (and bending) of
> the bell? How much does that last bend before the bell make to playing,
>
> intonation, etc.? Never having played sousaphone, and having scant
> experience with tuba...
>
> Grant---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 23:18:30 -0700
From: Craig Durham
Subject: Re: [CB] yet another sax questionWith regard to differences in 'orchestral' saxes: I always thought
saxes in orchestras had a more mellow sound. I'm thinking mainly
of the sax lines in "Sabre Dance" and "Bolero". For that matter, it
seems to me that the sax sections in the earlier big bands weren't
as 'brassy' as in some of the later groups.Craig
---------------------------------------------------------
From: Francis Firth
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 08:55:08 +0100
Subject: RE: [CB] [CB Digest]David F asks about pictures of the larger tarogato.
There is an illustration of waht is called a bass (but is in fact a tenor -
I think as I'm doing this from memory but it is certainly a larger
tarogato)in the following:
Z. Falvy and B.Habla, eds.: Das Tarogato: Geschichte, Akustische Merkmale,
Repertoire und Instrumentebauer (Budapest and Oberschutzen, 1998)Francis Firth
---------------------------------------------------------
From: "Merlin Williams"
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 10:13:45 -0400
Subject: Re: [CB] [CB Digest]I just returned from a trip to Baltimore. Walked into an little music store
across the street from the Peabody Conservatory, and what's the first thing
I see? A pair of tarogatos...an alto and a tenor.Visit Merlin's Mouthpiece
Jupiter Saxophone Artist/Clinician and member of the the Sax Ring.---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 11:23:56 -0700
From: Grant Green
Subject: Re: [CB] [CB Digest]
>I just returned from a trip to Baltimore. Walked into an little music store
>across the street from the Peabody Conservatory, and what's the first thing
>I see? A pair of tarogatos...an alto and a tenor.How much were they asking? ;-)
Grant
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green http://www.contrabass.com
Professional Fool -> http://www.mp3.com/ProFools
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
---------------------------------------------------------From: "Merlin Williams"
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 14:31:10 -0400
Subject: Re: [CB] [CB Digest]AFAIK, not for sale....
Visit Merlin's Mouthpiece
Jupiter Saxophone Artist/Clinician and member of the the Sax Ring.
> How much were they asking? ;-)
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 11:51:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Phillips
Subject: [CB] Sax octave keysThe old sax octaves may not have been automatic
(like on oboes nowadays) but I know that some used to
have a vent for the middle Db-Eb analogous to the
sarrusophone's, or the oboe's half-hole on the same
notes. Occasionally you'll see on of these on eBay
(pre-1914, I think) A bassoon also requires a half
hole above the first break (where Db-Eb is located on
the oboe) and a contrabassoon also requires additional
vents in the same places relative to its scale (i.e.
on the same fingerings) I hope you follow all of
this. I find it quite interesting.
--Andrew Phillips__________________________________________________
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 12:37:10 -0700
From: Grant Green
Subject: Re: [CB] Sax octave keys
> The old sax octaves may not have been automatic
>(like on oboes nowadays) but I know that some used to
>have a vent for the middle Db-Eb analogous to the
>sarrusophone's, or the oboe's half-hole on the same
>notes. Occasionally you'll see on of these on eBay
>(pre-1914, I think) A bassoon also requires a half
>hole above the first break (where Db-Eb is located on
>the oboe) and a contrabassoon also requires additional
>vents in the same places relative to its scale (i.e.
>on the same fingerings) I hope you follow all of
>this. I find it quite interesting.
Robert Howe reported some time ago that the middle D on his bass sax
was best fingered using the palm D key (with or without any lower
keys). I find that the D vent on my contrabass sarrusophone is
identical to the altissimo D key (the former is a right thumb key,
the latter a RH1 key, but both open identically-sized pads at the
same position on the bore). And let's not forget that the standard
fingering for middle D on the flute is without LH1...Grant
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green http://www.contrabass.com
Professional Fool -> http://www.mp3.com/ProFools
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