Contrabass Digest

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2001-03-06

 
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 19:02:31 -0500
From: Lawrence de Martin
Subject: Re: [CB] A big recorder

The sub-bass recorder appears to have a bore that is still compatible with human breath power, as
organ pipes of this register are usually wider.  Is the difference between rennaissance and baroque
fingering because of the taper?  Are any dimensions available?

Does this consort play in medium sized halls (>500 seats) or large (>2000)?  Is there any
amplification or reinforcement used?

Thank you for humoring my extreme curiosity,

Larry de Martin

Hans Mons wrote:
> As far as I know Adriana made this
> recorder for the Amsterdam Loeki Stardust ensemble, and they are really
> playing it in concerts.

---------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 17:28:50 -0700
From: Grant Green
Subject: Re: [CB] Sarrusophone!!!!
 

Bret said:
>Well, it's now official. I am the resident sarrusophonist for UTA,
>and will be playing it in several ensembles including the orchestra
>where it will substitute the contrabassoon on Beethoven's 5th
>Symphony.  Upon closer look the mouthpiece is not original but a
>Holton soprano sax mpc. with cork attached (the Elkhart, Ind. threw
>me off).  If anybody in the DWF area or elsewhere would like to
>see/play this horn e-mail me privately and I will be more than glad
>to let someone try it out.

Congratulations!  - Both for finding the horn, and for getting
approval to play it in public :-)

Which ensembles will you play in, apart from the orchestra?
Sarrusophones are good for doubling tuba parts (using the Eb->bass
clef transposition trick, but reading up an octave) in unison, and
bari sax parts down an octave.  The latter is fun in jazz ensembles.
String bass parts can be used directly, without transposing an octave
(they sound an octave lower than written, whereas tubas are usually
written at exact pitch):  the Eb->bass clef trick works for bari at
the correct octave, whereas the contra sounds an octave lower.  It
may take a little practice to get used to reading tuba parts -
sometimes many ledger lines below the bass staff.  If the piece has
an "Eb bass" part (sometimes found in British or Scandinavian
arrangements), you should be able to read it as written - these are
treble clef transposed parts intended for an Eb tuba.  You can also
cover contra-alto clarinet parts: they'll be at the right pitch if
you play an octave higher than written.  The Eb contra sarrus has the
range to cover Bb contrabass clarinet parts, but it requires a bit of
transposing...

Enjoy!

Grant

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green
ecode:contrabass       http://www.contrabass.com
Professional Fool -> http://www.mp3.com/ProFools
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
---------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 17:41:45 -0700
From: Grant Green
Subject: Re: [CB] A big recorder

Klaus wrote:
>a:    size of tonehole. That is to say, that toneholes that have to be moved
>closer to the labium, than ideal acoustics would dictate, a diminished in
>diameter. And vice versa.
>
>b:    tilted drilling. The inner opening of a tonehole is placed close to
>its acoustic ideal, whereas the outer opening is moved closer to an anatomic
>ideal. The relatively heavy wall of large recorders are helpful in making
>this feature possible.
>
>Real life mega-recorder construction most likely uses combinations of these
>options.

You can find both examples in the bassoon.

>Decades ago I saw a German TV feature showing a huge recorder built like an
>organ pipe. Not circular but square tubing made up of wooden plates. The
>tubing starting upwards and then going down through two 90 degree bends.
>Blown directly into the windway by a quite young girl. Might be something
>for me.

Sounds like the Paetzold recorders: I think they make square
cross-section recorders in C great bass, F contrabass, C
subcontrabass, and F sub-subcontrabass.  Dolmetsch is about to
release its new Millenium C great bass: they haven't posted any
pictures, but it sounds like its line of large basses will also be
square cross-section instruments (C great bass down to F
sub-subcontrabass) - see
http://www.be-blood.demon.co.uk/millennium.htm.

Enjoy!

Grant

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green
ecode:contrabass       http://www.contrabass.com
Professional Fool -> http://www.mp3.com/ProFools
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
---------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 17:44:28 -0700
From: Grant Green
Subject: Re: [CB] A big recorder

Larry de Martin inquired:
>The sub-bass recorder appears to have a bore that is still
>compatible with human breath power, as
>organ pipes of this register are usually wider.  Is the difference
>between rennaissance and baroque
>fingering because of the taper?  Are any dimensions available?

My understanding is that the Renaissance style of recorders have a
nearly cylindrical bore, while the Baroque style have strongly
tapered bores.  I'm not sure if that necessitates the fingering
differences, or if that is more a matter of differently positioned
fingerholes (and the lack of double holes on the Renaissance style).

Grant

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green
ecode:contrabass       http://www.contrabass.com
Professional Fool -> http://www.mp3.com/ProFools
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
---------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 13:29:10 +0100
From: "Klaus Bjerre"
Subject: Re: [CB] A big recorder

>From: Grant Green
>Subject: Re: [CB] A big recorder

> Larry de Martin inquired:
>>The sub-bass recorder appears to have a bore that is still
>>compatible with human breath power, as
>>organ pipes of this register are usually wider.  Is the difference
>>between rennaissance and baroque
>>fingering because of the taper?  Are any dimensions available?
>
> My understanding is that the Renaissance style of recorders have a
> nearly cylindrical bore, while the Baroque style have strongly
> tapered bores.  I'm not sure if that necessitates the fingering
> differences, or if that is more a matter of differently positioned
> fingerholes (and the lack of double holes on the Renaissance style).
>
> Grant

Renaissance style recorders have a sligthly "reversed" tapering until down
below the last fingerhole. From that point there is some flaring of the
bore. The bore is relatively wide and fingerholes are large in diameter

Baroque style recorders have a stronger tapering all the way down. However
with an unexpected variation in the tenor size:

When Moeck 30 years ago issued their Rottenburg series, the tenor differed
from other available tenors by being playable without keys for the lowest
notes.

I liked the model very much and had the chance to choose my specimen at the
factory in Celle back in 1973. The maple version was clearly superior to
those of the more expensive woods back then.

However it took a very well adjusted block angle at the windway exit to keep
a full 2 octave range on this instrument.

I did not learn of the reason for these troubles until 2 years ago. To
obtain the "short hand" fingering Moeck had remodelled the inner bore from
the tenor standard, which has a longer bore ending in an even more
pronounced flaring than that of the Renaissance style instruments.

The Rottenburg tenor has a very warm sound all the way down to the bottom C.
It was very surprising to learn that this shortening and "straigthening" of
bore was the reason for the problematic upper range.

In 1999 I got my Moeck Hotteterre model tenor, which is much closer to the
original Baroque concept: long bore with flaring at the lower end. And a
narrow windway. Very good in the upper range.

Shortly after I came across an almost new Yamaha tenor at a low price. A
modern instrument without the elegances of the Moeck Hotteterre model. But
with the long bore and the flare. Giving easy acces to the upper register.

About fingering: to my knowledge the fingerings of the Renaissance and the
Baroque style instruments basically are the same for the first octave plus a
fifth. For the next (very) few notes most Renaissance style instruments need
special fingerings to speak at all. And then most of them have no further
range.

The double holes/keys for chromatism in the lowest third are not a Baroque
concept. They are out of 20th century inventionism. The price is a sligth
loss of clarity of sound. For me the gain, aside from the chromatism through
the full range, is the chance to fine tune some of the cross fingerings by
supplementary "half" hole covering.

Klaus
---------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 14:51:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Charles King
Subject: Re: [CB] [CB Digest]
 

Topper  wrote:

> There is  a contra-Alto advertised as a bass clarinet
> that I cannot tell if the LH pinky keys are there.
> Not that I want to buy it but it is interesting how
> the person did not know it was a contra-Alto and now
> is claiming it is a contra bass (not in the ad) I
> did get the dimensions that the case  is 33" long.
> A contra-alto... at  last look under 700. and short
> yardage.

I have also corresponded with the seller of this horn.
I would be a little leery (leery enough not to bid a
the level it's reached).  I can see how he might not
know the difference between a bass clarinet and an EEb
contra.  However... he says he is a pawn shop owner
but doesn't know what a mouthpiece is, and as I recall
he told one of the other list members that he didn't
know what the neck was.  Now, to me this means that he
is either (a) really really lazy, (b) really really
dumb, or (c) really really anxious to maintain
"plausible deniability" about some defect.  If one of
you bids on and wins this horn (and if it's in good
shape it's a hell of a deal, as I write this) please
tell us about it.

Chuck King
 
 

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---------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 23:52:04 +0100
From: buzon
Subject: Re: [CB] [CB Digest]

> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 00:57:41 +0100
> From: "Klaus Bjerre"
> Subject: Re: [CB] A big recorder
>
> Decades ago I saw a German TV feature showing a huge recorder built like an
> organ pipe. Not circular but square tubing made up of wooden plates. The
> tubing starting upwards and then going down through two 90 degree bends.
> Blown directly into the windway by a quite young girl. Might be something
> for me.

Recently I have been to a concert were this recorder was played. Could be the "Paetzold" recorder, contra bass in F. The sound was something between organ pipe (like the 'gedackt') and recorder. What an amazing construction! Simple but well designed.
Holger
 
 

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