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Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 18:52:04 -0800
From: Lawrence de Martin <demartin@tesser.com>
Subject: Electronic 32'
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com> Does anyone have any experience with Electronic 32's on an otherwise all
> pipe instrument? I'd like something that packs a punch, but we have space
> limitations.Contrabass speakers are the limit to electronic reproduction of
sub-piano tones. The amount of air required to reach a given volume
goes up four times for every octave of descent, so equalling bass pipes
requires truly prodigious speakers.
I don't know how much air normal 32' ranks move, but high output 15"
speakers can move about 1/2 liter each. I have seen subwoofer arrays
that used 16 such speakers to get an extra two octaves in a living room,
let alone a performance sized space. Remember that pipes are resonant,
so the acoustic output is several times the air pump output on a real
organ.A second problem is obtaining the space to enclose all those woofers.
Low frequency response dictates enormous speaker cabinets. The
conventional solution has already been suggested:> ...drill a hole in his loft door, mount the woofers in that, and use the whole
> room beyond as a resonating cavity as he pumped up the volume mightily.In a church setting, it may even be possible to mount the speakers in an
exterior wall, for a true "infinite baffle" type enclosure, This will
maximize the bass extension of the driver, while minimizing the
transient bass distortion (group delay). You still need to install
enough amplifier power to drive all these speakers.A further obstacle is picking up a pipe. Contact microphones will only
detect vibrations of the pipe itself; the audible output is from the air
column in the pipe. Very few pressure microphones have flat response
below 30Hz (low B on the piano), and the ones that do are expensive.I spent a year on a mailing list of people who build their own bass
speakers, and the most extreme were organ fans. They generally reported
that architectural reinforcements were required after reaching
satisfactory bass output. Hopefully most houses of worship and concert
halls are built well enough to withstand the pressure and vibrations,
but this needs to be considered.Rather than meeting all these requirements, it may be easier just to add
the rank than to substitute an electronic facsimile. Still waiting for
a positive experience reported in this direction....Larry de Martin
demartin@tesser.com
---------------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:19:19 -0800 (PST)
From: steve@vertexdev.com
Subject: Tuba size ratios
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comHi,
Let me introduce myself. My name is Stephen Barr. I am a tubist
and saxophonist at Evergreen Junior High in Redmond, WA. I was
looking through the Woodwind and Brasswind catolog at the Miraphone
tubas and came up with a question. When a tuba is described as
4/4, 5/4, etc., what parts of the tuba are being compared. I know
that the larger the numerator of the fraction is, the larger the
tuba is, but what is being compared?-Stephen Barr
steve@vertexdev.com
tuba & sax
---------------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 09:12:02 -0500
Subject: Tuba size ratios
From: michael c grogg <mgrogg@juno.com>
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com>Let me introduce myself. My name is Stephen Barr. I am a tubist
>and saxophonist at Evergreen Junior High in Redmond, WA. I was
>looking through the Woodwind and Brasswind catolog at the Miraphone
>tubas and came up with a question. When a tuba is described as
>4/4, 5/4, etc., what parts of the tuba are being compared. I know
>that the larger the numerator of the fraction is, the larger the
>tuba is, but what is being compared?The fractions are a throwback to the fractional descriptions of violins,
1/2 3/4 4/4 etc. The difference between a 3/4 and a 4/4 violin is about
an inch and a half, so that in it self is not all that proportionately
accurate. In tubas, it is as much a marketing tactic as anything. In
general, a 3/4 horn is small enough for an elementary or middle schooler,
in adult usage good possibly for solo or small ensemble work. 4/4 is the
so called standard sized horn, good for general purpose
band/orchestra/small ensemble solo work. The 5/4 and sometimes 6/4
designations just mean it is a really big tuba, good for large orchestra
or band work, or mooring Zeppelins. The overall size has some to do with
the designation, although bore size at the second valve figures in as
well.Normally, anything from .670 to about .720 would be found on a 3/4, .720
to .790 on a 4/4, and from .790 to about .840 is in the 5/4 and beyond
range. Surprisingly, Meinl-Weston lists the bore size of the 2155 as
.820, and considers the horn as a 5/4. the bore of the 2165 lists at .795
and that horn is considered a 6/4. The 2165 is about the size of an
aircraft carrier, where as the 2155 will easily fit in an 18 wheeler.
Michael Grogg
"Tuba playing, or at least tuba sales is all smoke and mirrors."___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
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---------------------------------------------------------From: Heliconman@aol.com
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 23:29:33 EST
Subject: Re: Electronic 32'
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comIn a message dated 11/09/1999 7:56:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,
demartin@tesser.com writes:<< > Does anyone have any experience with Electronic 32's on an otherwise all
> pipe instrument? I'd like something that packs a punch, but we have space
> limitations.Contrabass speakers are the limit to electronic reproduction of
sub-piano tones. The amount of air required to reach a given volume
goes up four times for every octave of descent, so equalling bass pipes
requires truly prodigious speakers.
I don't know how much air normal 32' ranks move, but high output 15"
speakers can move about 1/2 liter each. I have seen subwoofer arrays
that used 16 such speakers to get an extra two octaves in a living room,
let alone a performance sized space. Remember that pipes are resonant,
so the acoustic output is several times the air pump output on a real
organ. >>Movie theatres were using banks of Cerwin-Vega 30 inch woofers producing 12
Hz tones cued from the film for the Sensurround<tm> effect in "Earthquake".
If I remember correctly, the volume was up above 80db to have the desired
belly shaking effect.<< A second problem is obtaining the space to enclose all those woofers.
Low frequency response dictates enormous speaker cabinets. The
conventional solution has already been suggested:> ...drill a hole in his loft door, mount the woofers in that, and use the whole
> room beyond as a resonating cavity as he pumped up the volume mightily.In a church setting, it may even be possible to mount the speakers in an
exterior wall, for a true "infinite baffle" type enclosure, This will
maximize the bass extension of the driver, while minimizing the
transient bass distortion (group delay). You still need to install
enough amplifier power to drive all these speakers.A further obstacle is picking up a pipe. Contact microphones will only
detect vibrations of the pipe itself; the audible output is from the air
column in the pipe. Very few pressure microphones have flat response
below 30Hz (low B on the piano), and the ones that do are expensive. >>Perhaps the use of a subwoofer wired as a microphone diaphagm!
<< I spent a year on a mailing list of people who build their own bass
speakers, and the most extreme were organ fans. They generally reported
that architectural reinforcements were required after reaching
satisfactory bass output. Hopefully most houses of worship and concert
halls are built well enough to withstand the pressure and vibrations,
but this needs to be considered.Rather than meeting all these requirements, it may be easier just to add
the rank than to substitute an electronic facsimile. Still waiting for
a positive experience reported in this direction....
>>I remember recently some talk about large volume sound systems that use tiny
speakers that produce a pair of ultrasound signals that produce beat
frequencies within the range (and below?) of human hearing. I have not yet
found a source for accurate information on this equipment and its theory, but
it seems to make sense. It's the kind of thing that would put lots of rock
and roll roadies out of work because there is no need for them to stack huge
cabinets for rock shows!Anyone heard more about this ultrasonic process???
---------------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 22:31:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Adam Kent-Isaac <lokibassoon@yahoo.com>
Subject: My Web Page
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comMy web page is finally up! It contains a picture of
myself that I drew, cool MIDI, a link to the Castle
Bass Clarinet society, a link to my favorite song and
more! Please go look at it please, at:www.geocities.com/genovasynthesis/adampage.html?94221478090
This is a really cool page but it's really pretty new
and incomplete. Please see it anyway!!!Thanks!!!!!!!!
-Adam
=====
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
---------------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 22:35:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Adam Kent-Isaac <lokibassoon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Correction about my web Page
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comSorry!
You can forget all the gibberish at the end. If you
enter it in you'll still go there, but it'll save you
time not to. Just enter this in:www.geocities.com/genovasynthesis/adampage.html
That'll get you there.
=====
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
---------------------------------------------------------Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 00:46:11 -0600
From: Peter Koval <pkoval@usd.edu>
Subject: Re: Paris?
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com
Grant Green wrote:
> My wife and I will be spending a week in Paris later this month,
> unfettered by children or work. Along with all the traditional
> tourist sights (Louvre, Versailles, etc.) and cuisine, are there any
> characteristic French things to experience, particularly with some
> relation to music? Does anyone know of a reputable Parisian dealer
> in sarrusophones, ophicleides, and/or related curiosities?
> Especially stuff that's so large it will need to be shipped ;-)
>
> Now taking suggestions :-)Grant,
> Try Andre Bissonier, Rue du Pas de la Mule, Paris, France. This is a
> small shop in a central location near the Place de la Bastille. I
> haven't been there for years but believe it still exists. It was full
> of woodwind instruments in 1984 when I was last there.Regards, Peter Koval
pkoval@usd,edu
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 00:55:17 -0600
From: Peter Koval <pkoval@usd.edu>
Subject: Re: Paris?
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com
Peter Koval wrote:
> Grant Green wrote:
> > My wife and I will be spending a week in Paris later this month,
> > unfettered by children or work. Along with all the traditional
> > tourist sights (Louvre, Versailles, etc.) and cuisine, are there any
> > characteristic French things to experience, particularly with some
> > relation to music? Does anyone know of a reputable Parisian dealer
> > in sarrusophones, ophicleides, and/or related curiosities?
> > Especially stuff that's so large it will need to be shipped ;-)
> >
> > Now taking suggestions :-)
>
> Grant,
>
> > Try Andre Bissonier, Rue du Pas de la Mule, Paris, France. This is a
> > small shop in a central location near the Place de la Bastille. I
> > haven't been there for years but believe it still exists. It was full
> > of woodwind instruments in 1984 when I was last there.
>
> Regards, Peter Koval
> pkoval@usd,edu
>
> So much for relying on memory! The correct name is Andre Bissonet, not
> Bissonier.Peter Koval
pkoval@usd.edu
---------------------------------------------------------
From: "Rick Izumi" <izumithune@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Paris?
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:21:35 -0800
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comI wil be going to London, England in April next year. Is there any woodwind
shops or other interesting places that I can see there?Rick Izumi
izumithune@msn.com----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Koval <pkoval@usd.edu>
To: <contrabass@contrabass.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 10:46 PM
Subject: Re: Paris?
> Grant Green wrote:
> >
> > My wife and I will be spending a week in Paris later this month,
> > unfettered by children or work. Along with all the traditional
> > tourist sights (Louvre, Versailles, etc.) and cuisine, are there any
> > characteristic French things to experience, particularly with some
> > relation to music? Does anyone know of a reputable Parisian dealer
> > in sarrusophones, ophicleides, and/or related curiosities?
> > Especially stuff that's so large it will need to be shipped ;-)
> >
> > Now taking suggestions :-)
>
> Grant,
>
> > Try Andre Bissonier, Rue du Pas de la Mule, Paris, France. This is a
> > small shop in a central location near the Place de la Bastille. I
> > haven't been there for years but believe it still exists. It was full
> > of woodwind instruments in 1984 when I was last there.
>
> Regards, Peter Koval
> pkoval@usd,edu
>
>
> ----------------------
> end contrabass list
>
---------------------------------------------------------Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:53:21 -0600
From: Peter Koval <pkoval@usd.edu>
Subject: Re: Paris? Now London
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com
Rick Izumi wrote:
> I wil be going to London, England in April next year. Is there any woodwind
> shops or other interesting places that I can see there?
>
> Rick Izumi
> izumithune@msn.com
>The most comprehensive shop is Tony Bingham, 11 Pond Street, London NW3 2PN,
ENGLAND. Tel: 171 794-1596. Auction houses such as Sotheby's, Christie's and
Phillips situated in central London hold specialized musical instrument auctions
several times a year (possibly with one in April!) and the Boosey and Hawkes
factory offers free conducted tours almost daily (they also have an interesting
musical instrument museum that contains an incomplete example of a bass
rothphone mistakenly described as a tenor in the catalog--Robert Howe recently
stated on this list that no known examples exist but I saw and have photos of
this one and another complete example from the Orsi factory collection). By the
way, in English parlance (quoting Anthony Baines, for example), these
instruments are called rothphones rather than rothophones. Although apparently
named after Ferdinando Roth, the instruments were first patented in 1911/12 by
the Bottali brothers, one of whom was foreman in Roth's factory according to
information received from Orsi in the 1980s. I have copies of the patents, in
which the name rothphone is not mentioned, but again these are presently packed
away. The Horniman museum has a large musical instrument collection including an
alto or tenor rothphone called a saxorusophone in their catalog--I have just
moved house and don't have access to most of my books to check the size--and the
Victoria and Albert museum has a few beautiful and very important early musical
instruments including wind instruments. Brighton (not too far away from London)
also has a good collection of musical instruments including sarrusophones and a
reed contrabass.
I hope that this gives you some idea of what is available in and around London.
Regards, Peter Koval
pkoval@usd.edu---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:46:33 -0700
From: Grant Green <gdgreen@contrabass.com>
Subject: Re: Electronic 32'
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com> Contrabass speakers are the limit to electronic reproduction of
> sub-piano tones. The amount of air required to reach a given volume
> goes up four times for every octave of descent, so equalling bass pipes
> requires truly prodigious speakers.
***
>Movie theatres were using banks of Cerwin-Vega 30 inch woofers producing 12
>Hz tones cued from the film for the Sensurround<tm> effect in "Earthquake".
>If I remember correctly, the volume was up above 80db to have the desired
>belly shaking effect.How about folded horns, like the Klipschorn? According to their
website (http://www.klipsch.com), their folded horn speakers are
rated +/- 3 dB down to 17.5 Hz. Look under the "Heritage" line.
They also have a number of subwoofers, but they seem to bottom out
around 24 Hz.Enjoy!
Grant
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green gdgreen@contrabass.com
http://www.contrabass.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
---------------------------------------------------------Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:46:59 -0700
From: Grant Green <gdgreen@contrabass.com>
Subject: Re: roth(o)phones?
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com>musical instrument museum that contains an incomplete example of a bass
>rothphone mistakenly described as a tenor in the catalog--Robert Howe recently
>stated on this list that no known examples exist but I saw and have photos of
>this one and another complete example from the Orsi factory
>collection). By the
>way, in English parlance (quoting Anthony Baines, for example), these
>instruments are called rothphones rather than rothophones. Although apparentlySomeone recently sent me an image of a bass roth(o)phone, labeled ORSI. I'll upload it to http://www.contrabass.com/pages/rothphone.jpg for anyone interested in having a look. I can't tell from the image if this is a b&w photograph or an illustration (I suspect the latter).
>named after Ferdinando Roth, the instruments were first patented in 1911/12 by
>the Bottali brothers, one of whom was foreman in Roth's factory according to
>information received from Orsi in the 1980s. I have copies of the patents, inLangwill's attributes the rothophone to Friedrich Roth. Here's the entry:
"Kinship with Ferdinando Roth unknown; 1908 invented 'Rothcorno',
built by Roth & Bottali; 1911 invented 'Rothfono' (rothophone) family
of double-reed WWIs of saxophone-like construction 'a complemento del
Contrabasso ad ancia', patented 1912 by Bottali; according to Mang,
they were introduced at a Music Congress in Roma."
The patent (listed in Langwill's under Bottali) is French #445573 (1912), and apparently claims a family of 5 different sizes (SATBBs, I assume). I find it interesting that he/they were able to patent the rothophone, considering that it was essentially a sarrusophone in the shape of a saxophone (hence the alternate name, "saxorusophone"), both of which were patented decades earlier.Enjoy!
Grant
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green gdgreen@contrabass.com
http://www.contrabass.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
---------------------------------------------------------From: "izumithune" <izumithune@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Paris? Now London
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 14:44:39 -0800
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comPeter
Thank you for the informationRick Izumi
izumithune@msn.com
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