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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 19:16:13 -0700
From: "Timothy J. Tikker" <timjt@awod.com>
Subject: Re: 32' pianos; orchestration text gaffes
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com
Re 64' pitch and pianos:The standard low A on the piano is that of the 32' octave, in organ parlance.
There are three Boesendorfer models which go to the F below that (92 keys total
range), and one, the Imperial Grand, which goes to the C below that (97 keys).
These are also the 32' octave, C being the lowest note of that octave. The
Imperial Grand is a 9' 6" piano; obviously, these big bass strings are heavily
wound. No piano is made which goes below the 32' octave.The Fazioli company of Italy makes the world's longest grand piano, a 10" 2".
However, it only goes to the standard low A... go figure. Its lid is so heavy
that it's divided into three parts, each with a separate lid-stick.Both companies have websites, easy to find with a websearch under those names.
Re orchestration text anomalies:
Yes, I've read that older contrabassoons, especially the French ones, were
unsatisfactory, thus the unfavorable comments about them in some books. Some
time ago I quoted here in extenso a passage from such a book, praising the
contrabass sarrusophone and disparaging the French contrabassoon.But I've definitely found things in other books which had little to do with
reality. One recent author (early-to-mid-1980s) gave c'''' as the top written
note on the Bb sorprano clarinet, but only g''' as the written top of the Eb
soprano, which sounds the same pitch as the top of the Bb. That's bogus, of
course, since the Eb is just as capable of playing its high c'''' -- I played it
most every time I warmed up in my high school band days. He also didn't seem to
understand that the lowest notes of the clarinets are fairly easy to play and
dynamically quite controllable, even by younger players, unlike the other winds.
His section on the pipe organ (which put it in an appendix along with such
peripherals as cowbells, banjos...) was utterly useless, with several glaring
gaffes.The trouble with the organ, of course, is that it really could take a complete
orchestration text unto itself to do it justice! Perhaps I'll write it
someday...!- Timothy Tikker
---------------------------------------------------------
From: <Colin.HARRIS@dfee.gov.uk>
Subject: RE: Pedal Notes
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 08:52:50 +0100
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comRight!
In brass bands, all instruments except the bass trombone are written in
treble clef as transposing instruments. The Bb cornet is notated like to Bb
Trumpet in orchestras. The (Bb) Tenor Trombone is also written in treble
clef, a ninth higher than it sounds. A BBb bass is written in treble as
well, 2 octaves and 1 tone higher than it sounds. The reason for this is
the same reason as for clarinets and saxophones transposing: in theory a
cornet player can play a BBb or Eb bass, as the fingerings are the same.
The main difference is that brass band players aren't expected to double
instruments, unlike the woodwind families mentioned above. It just means
that if you learn cornet or tenor horn, to play any other valved instrument
in the brass band, you don't have to learn any new fingerings.However, the 2 tenor trombones are treated in the same way , so therefore a
low C for a trombone is Bb in the bass clef stave, where as a pedal C is the
Bb 2 1/2 ledger lines below the bass clef stave. So, in brass band parlance
- a pedal C is the first fundamental of any instrument in the brass banding
family. I hope this clears things up. It makes more sense to people in the
banding world than people outside it!Colin Harris
Eb Bass
Backworth Colliery Band
http://www.backworth.org.uk
See "A Day in the Life of Backworth Colliery Band" at
http://www.backworth.org.uk/life.htm-----Original Message-----
From: Dafydd y garreg wen [mailto:mavnw@csv.warwick.ac.uk]
Sent: 25 October 1999 22:16
To: contrabass@contrabass.com
Subject: Re: Pedal Notes
CONTRABASS@contrabass.com
=========================
*On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Tom Izzo wrote:
> CONTRABASS@contrabass.com
> =========================
> *
>
> Colin,
> > CONTRABASS@contrabass.com
> > =========================
> > *
> >
> > Tom, I mean pedal C (The first fundamental) in Treble clef - equiv.. Bb
> > below the bass clef stave. Sorry!! I can't help being a brass band
> person!
> >
> Even being a brass band person, the fundamental would still be an octave
> lower C.Sorry - run that past me again; it doesn't seem to make any sense!
>
> > BTW, isn't pedal F (bass clef, 3 4 ledger lines below) an the most
awesome
> > note on a Bb/F bass trombone?
>
> I personally like the Eb & D (F & E Treble clef) below that F.The manly types among us prefer the C on single plug; capable of sawing
any ensemble in half (and I've played in an orchestra of 2000 people :p
(where it was sadly inaudible))Dave Taylor
>
> Tom
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Tom Izzo [mailto:jeanvaljean@ntsource.com]
> > Sent: 25 October 1999 14:20
> > To: contrabass@contrabass.com
> > Subject: Re: Pedal Notes
> >
> >
> > CONTRABASS@contrabass.com
> > =========================
> > *
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <Colin.HARRIS@dfee.gov.uk>
> >
> > > CONTRABASS@contrabass.com
> > > =========================
> > > *
> > >
> > >
> > > Rubbish - the pedal C on a trombone is the easiest note on the
> > instrument!!
> >
> > Hardly!!!
> >
> > The pedal C on a Trombone is 6 spaces below Bass clef, & not every
> > Trombonist finds that easy to play, even among Bass Trombonists.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Dafydd y garreg wen [mailto:mavnw@csv.warwick.ac.uk]
> > > Sent: 24 October 1999 21:39
> > > To: contrabass@contrabass.com
> > > Subject: Re: Orchestration Books
> > >
> > >
> > > CONTRABASS@contrabass.com
> > > =========================
> > > *
> > >
> > > My personal favourite is the writer who stated quite plainly "Pedal
> notes
> > > are impossible on the Bass Trombone". Obviously writing for grade 2
> > > standard players, then.
> > >
> > > Dave Taylor---------------------------------------------------------
From: "Tom Izzo" <jeanvaljean@ntsource.com>
Subject: Re: Pedal Notes
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 08:23:25 -0500
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com
Colin wrote:>
> Right!
>
> In brass bands, all instruments except the bass trombone are written in
> treble clef as transposing instruments.Not quite.
The Timpani is also written as non-transposing Bass Clef, tho sometimes is
written in Bb Treble Clef in the score.
And I wouldn't say the Bass Trombone is "never" written in Bb Treble Clef. I
am a sub in a Brass Band in the states, & I've run accross three pieces
where all three Trombone parts are in Bb Treble Clef. By & Large the Bass
Tromb is on Bass Clef.Tom
---------------------------------------------------------
From: <Colin.HARRIS@dfee.gov.uk>
Subject: RE: Pedal Notes
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 13:29:22 +0100
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com
In England, I have never seen a bass trombone part written in exclusively
Treble clef, save for music which has parts for both treble and bass (i.e.
Philip Jones type stuff). The percussion is of course written at concert
pitch in a band score.
Anyway, lots or orchestral stuff have tenor clef for the bass trombone, so
you should be adept to reading Bb treble clef (Add 2 sharps etc.!!!)-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Izzo [mailto:jeanvaljean@ntsource.com]
Sent: 26 October 1999 14:23
To: contrabass@contrabass.com
Subject: Re: Pedal Notes
CONTRABASS@contrabass.com
=========================
*Colin wrote:
>
> Right!
>
> In brass bands, all instruments except the bass trombone are written in
> treble clef as transposing instruments.Not quite.
The Timpani is also written as non-transposing Bass Clef, tho sometimes is
written in Bb Treble Clef in the score.
And I wouldn't say the Bass Trombone is "never" written in Bb Treble Clef. I
am a sub in a Brass Band in the states, & I've run accross three pieces
where all three Trombone parts are in Bb Treble Clef. By & Large the Bass
Tromb is on Bass Clef.Tom
----------------------
end contrabass list
---------------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:30:24 -0500
From: John Howell <John.Howell@vt.edu>
Subject: Pedal notes
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com
>> My personal favourite is the writer who stated quite plainly "Pedal notes
>> are impossible on the Bass Trombone". Obviously writing for grade 2
>> standard players, then.
>>
>> Dave TaylorI wish I knew who it was who said that, and when and where it was said. I
believe British orchestral bass trombones were in G for a long time,
utilizing a handle to reach the lowest slide positions. Depending on the
bore and the mouthpiece, the response might be quite different from a
modern bass and the statement might have been true in that time and place.
Gimme my 72H and a Bach 1 1/2 G and I'll give you pedal notes!!John
John & Susie Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:John.Howell@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 22:12:46 +0100 (BST)
From: Dafydd y garreg wen <mavnw@csv.warwick.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Pedal notes
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com
On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, John Howell wrote:> CONTRABASS@contrabass.com
> =========================
> *
>
> >> My personal favourite is the writer who stated quite plainly "Pedal notes
> >> are impossible on the Bass Trombone". Obviously writing for grade 2
> >> standard players, then.
> >>
> >> Dave Taylor
>
> I wish I knew who it was who said that, and when and where it was said. I
> believe British orchestral bass trombones were in G for a long time,
> utilizing a handle to reach the lowest slide positions. Depending on theThis is quite true. I have played the G Bass (a 1920 model), and pedal
notes are quite simply ripping at fortissimo, and can even be quite
tasteful. In fact, I took one into orchestra tonight, and made quite an
impression (though unfortunately not the one I wanted!).Dave Taylor
> bore and the mouthpiece, the response might be quite different from a
> modern bass and the statement might have been true in that time and place.
> Gimme my 72H and a Bach 1 1/2 G and I'll give you pedal notes!!
>
> John
>
> John & Susie Howell
> Virginia Tech Department of Music
> Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
> Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034
> (mailto:John.Howell@vt.edu)
> http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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