Contrabass Digest
To subscribe or unsubscribe, email gdgreen@contrabass.com

 
 

1998-12-01

 
list                           Tue, 1 Dec 1998            Volume 1 : Number 41

In this issue:
 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 15:08:11 -0800
From: Grant Green
Subject: Re: Subcontrabassoon??

>It is interesting Brock brings up subcontrabassoon now; I have been thinking
>about it recently, remembering someone mentioned it in one of the early
>Contrabass List archives.  This last week I was wishing the subject would
>come up again on the list.  Does anyone on the list know more about it?
>It would be really great if a modern instrument maker would make another
>one.  Maybe somebody has?  Could one be made it the style of the modern
>symphonic contra, folded over on itself?  Maybe improve the sausage bassoon
>idea?  What kind of reed (maybe  3 cm across at the tip and a blade over 4
>cm long)?  And how do you figure-out if your BBBb (64') is a bit sharp or
>flat?
>It seems as neat an idea as octosubcontrabasso flutes.
>Sarah

My recollection is that the "subcontra" bassoon was so-called because its
range extended to the "subcontra Bb", which is the lowest Bb on the piano.
The lowest C is "contrabass C", and the B, Bb, and A below that are
"subcontrabass".

BTW, the contrabassoon plays in the 16' register (at least, its lowest C is
the 16' C).  For the low Bb, you probably have a total of about 18'.  So, a
doublecontra bassoon would need *only* 32' (or rather, 36') of bore, rather
than 64'.  Wind instruments scale by increasing the cross-sectional area of
the bore by 2X for each octave down.  So, if the bore inside the bell of a
contrabassoon is about, what, around 3"?, the diameter of the subcontra
would be about 4.2" inside the bell.  Not *too* ungainly, at least compared
to a contrabass sax, but a bit wide for the rackett approach.  A subcontra
rackett (with conical bore) would probably work out to be about 4' long by
at least about 13" in diameter.  Well, maybe that's not so bad after all...
Of course, we should probably ask Hans how much space one needs to leave
between the bores in order to drill non-intersecting fingerholes.

If you went with a Renaissance-style rackett design (cylindrical bore), you
could make a much smaller instrument.  The Ren. contra has a bore of around
1 cm to 0.5", and (because it is cylindrical) would need only 16' of bore.
Folded 9 times gives you an instrument about 21" long, but one that
overblows in 12ths instead of octaves.

As for tuning ... use a stopwatch to count the vibrations ;-)

Grant

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green            gdgreen@contrabass.com
                    http://www.contrabass.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 17:39:27 EST
From: Heliconman
Subject: Re: Bass sax

In a message dated 98-11-30 17:05:50 EST, you write:

>>- Who made "Pan-American"?
>
>C.G. Conn, I believe.
>

Oh yeah! You might drop Dr. Margaret Downey Banks an email about the horn and
see what she knows about serial numbers. She's very charming and helpful and
literally wrote the book on the history of C.G. Conn! Her website is....
<http://www.usd.edu/~mbanks>

Cheers!
Heliconman

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 15:17:39 -0800
From: Grant Green
Subject: Another CD Review
 

CD REVIEW:

Bassoon with a View - Late 20th Century Bassoon Music (1998, American
Composers Forum, Innova REcordings 520).  This CD contains 7 new works for
bassoon (and contrabassoon!), composed recently in fairly modern style.
The tracks are: OK, so there's only one contrabassoon selection.  But, its a good one!
This is a CD I'll be listening to repeatedly...

Grant
 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green            gdgreen@contrabass.com
                    http://www.contrabass.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 18:23:30 -0200
From: (Timothy Tikker)
Subject: Re: Subcontrabassoon??

>BTW, the contrabassoon plays in the 16' register (at least, its lowest C is
>the 16' C).  For the low Bb, you probably have a total of about 18'.  So, a
>doublecontra bassoon would need *only* 32' (or rather, 36') of bore, rather
>than 64'.

I think he just meant to say Bb of the 64' octave.  The theoretical pitch,
from the organist's viewpoint, is 36-4/7'.

- Tim Tikker

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 16:23:57 -0800
From: Grant Green
Subject: Re: Subcontrabass Tuba Played by Hoffnung

>I found my newspaper photo of the Harvard giant. I've taken a jpg photo of the
>clipping with my buddy's new Sony digital camera that records still pictures
>as jpg's on a 3 inch floppy...fun toy! I'll upload a copy to Grant, since I
>don't have a website.
>
>Heliconman

I've now archived Vol. 6, No. 40 (this digest), with the image and a link
to the image.  To go straight to the digest, see
http://www.contrabass.com/contra-archive/contra640.html.  To see the image
alone, use http://www.contrabass.com/contra-archive/tuba-heli.jpg.

Enjoy!

Grant
 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green
sarrusophones and other seismic devices
list@contrabass.com             http://www.contrabass.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:51:24 -0500
From: Bob Thomas
Subject: Re:  Bass sax

its been written:
>>- Is it still possible to get bass reeds, or must I use bari reeds?

>You can get Vandoren bass saxophone reeds or also Rico makes a generic Bass
>Saxophone/contra bass clarinet reed that is usable. Glotin makes them also and
>a bunch of other very tiny companies. The most consistant are the vandorens.

 I've been using a large (classic hard rubber) bari mouth piece
 on my Buescher bass. Same tone and volume, and I haven't noticed
 any additional tuning problems 8-)
 This gets me a much wider selection of much cheaper reeds.

       b.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:28:34 -0400
From: ROBERT HOWE
Subject: Re: Bass sax

Margaret Downey Banks, who is a musical instrument historian at the
Shrine for Music, tells me that you cannot use Conn serial number lists
for PanAms.  You should contact her directly for information on this
topic.

Robert Howe

> - Is there a way to ascertain its age?
>
> Yes by the serial number.
>
> - Who made "Pan-American"?
> Conn made the Pan American - it's called a stencil horn reason being that the
> Conn instuments or rather the instruments that Conn kept for their own brand
> name had rolled tone holes. Anything that was a little off with the holes, the
> rolled part was cut off and sold as a stencil horn. I had one that was
> marketed as a Gretch horn.
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:33:14 -0400
From: ROBERT HOWE
Subject: Re: Bass sax

Heliconman@aol.com wrote:
> I've heard some discussion about gold lacquer, but never seen an example of
> it. I understand it increases the value of the horn, so think seriously about
> stripping or refinishing your monster!

NO NO NO NO NO!  A NEW COAT OF LAKKER REQUIRES THE REMOVAL OF METAL FROM
THE HORN.  If you want to preserve the value of the horn, and
coincidentally its playing ability, do NOT Lakker it!!  Save the
original finish, have it touched up as necessary.

Doing so preserves the musical, esthetic, and historic value of the
horn.  I can't tell you how many horns I have seen ruined by overzealous
buffing and lakkering, when a little silver polish, maybe a touch-up
here and there, a 3-M cloth in the case, and regular wiping off of body
oils are all that is needed..

Robert Howe

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:37:29 -0500
From: Steve_Jessica
Subject: Re: Bass sax

With all of this new activity surrounding the bass saxophone, may I remind you
all that a videotape copy of the BBC documentary "Lowest Of The Low" (The BBC
investigates the bass & contrabass saxophone) is $25.00 US postpaid and is
available from me.
Regards,
Steven Lederman
 

Bob Thomas wrote:
> its been written:
> >>- Is it still possible to get bass reeds, or must I use bari reeds?
>
> >You can get Vandoren bass saxophone reeds or also Rico makes a generic Bass
> >Saxophone/contra bass clarinet reed that is usable. Glotin makes them also and
> >a bunch of other very tiny companies. The most consistant are the vandorens.
>
>         I've been using a large (classic hard rubber) bari mouth piece
>         on my Buescher bass. Same tone and volume, and I haven't noticed
>         any additional tuning problems 8-)
>         This gets me a much wider selection of much cheaper reeds.
>
>                                                         b.
>
> ------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 17:51:07 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
From: Frank D Diaz
Subject: RE: Re:  Bass sax

Bob, what mouthpiece are you using?

Frank Diaz
 

----------
From:  Bob Thomas
Sent:  Monday, November 30, 1998 4:51 PM
Subject:  Re:  Bass sax

its been written:
>>- Is it still possible to get bass reeds, or must I use bari reeds?

>You can get Vandoren bass saxophone reeds or also Rico makes a generic Bass
>Saxophone/contra bass clarinet reed that is usable. Glotin makes them also and
>a bunch of other very tiny companies. The most consistant are the vandorens.

 I've been using a large (classic hard rubber) bari mouth piece
 on my Buescher bass. Same tone and volume, and I haven't noticed
 any additional tuning problems 8-)
 This gets me a much wider selection of much cheaper reeds.

       b.

------------------------
 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 18:01:46 -0800
From: Grant Green
Subject: New Music Calendar
 

I just received the following, which may be of general interest to those
living in the Southern California area.

Enjoy!

Grant

>I have developed a calendar application for listing live, primarily
>acoustic musical performance events in the Southern California region. The
>calendar is accessible by anyone, and currently anyone is free to submit
>events.  I did this because of frustration with the local print media in
>getting non-major (e.g., LA Philharmonic) events published.  I would like
>people use this calendar to list their events and pick performances to
>attend.  I will be promoting this site with the local media, colleges and
>universities, and other web sites.  The site is located at:
>
>     http://www.realism.com/LiveMusic/dc.html
>
>I am interested in any comments you may have.  Please mail them to Leonard
>Daly at daly@realism.com.
>
>I have had several requests to support other regions of the US (and other
>countries).  I am still considering my options and will let anyone who
>writes to me know of my decision (probably after the holidays).
>
>
>     Thank you,
>
>     Leonard Daly
>     Principal Euphonium and Webmaster, Pierce Symphonic Wind Ensemble
>        http://www.realism.com/Pierce
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:07:48 EST
From: Heliconman
Subject: Re: Bass sax - DON'T REFINISH!

In a message dated 98-11-30 20:28:01 EST, you write:

>Some idiot accidently wrote:

>> I've heard some discussion about gold lacquer, but never seen an example of
>> it. I understand it increases the value of the horn, so think seriously about
>> stripping or refinishing your monster!
>
>NO NO NO NO NO!  A NEW COAT OF LAKKER REQUIRES THE REMOVAL OF METAL FROM
>THE HORN.  If you want to preserve the value of the horn, and
>coincidentally its playing ability, do NOT Lakker it!!  Save the
>original finish, have it touched up as necessary.
>
>Doing so preserves the musical, esthetic, and historic value of the
>horn.  I can't tell you how many horns I have seen ruined by overzealous
>buffing and lakkering, when a little silver polish, maybe a touch-up
>here and there, a 3-M cloth in the case, and regular wiping off of body
>oils are all that is needed..
>
>Robert Howe

Oooooh! Cheeeeez Wizzzz!!!!  Just re-read what I typed and <cringe> I left out
the most important word in the sentence!!! <SHUDDER>
It should have read.....

 "I've heard some discussion about gold LACQUER, but never seen an example of
it. I understand it increases the value of the horn, so think seriously about
_NOT_ stripping or refinishing your monster!"

REPEAT:        _NOT_  stripping or refinishing

Honest to God! That's the phrase that was in my head! Don't know how I missed it!
How come I can never find that pesky UNSEND button when I need to?!

Forgive me, please!!!!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 23:01:18 -0500
From: Bob Thomas
Subject: Re: Bass sax

Frank D Diaz wrote:
>Bob, what mouthpiece are you using?

 Its a Riffault (France) R4 (med-closed).
 "Steelite Ebonite" it says.
 Haven't seen the Riffault name since I bought mine, but
 it looks like the E.Rousseau classic models, Bilger gold
 or silver lines, Selmer S-90, and any number of cheaper
 ones. I'm guessing anything with a large chamber will do.
 I did try a couple of jazz models out of curiosity, and
 didn't have much luck.
 I really can't feel or hear a difference between the
 Riffault and the bass mthpc that came with the horn.

      b.

original msg:
> I've been using a large (classic hard rubber) bari mouth piece
> on my Buescher bass. Same tone and volume, and I haven't noticed
> any additional tuning problems 8-)
> This gets me a much wider selection of much cheaper reeds.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 22:07:49 -3200 (PST)
From: Robert Groover
Subject: Re: Subcontrabass Tuba Played by Hoffnung

Yale also supposedly has one of the BBBb contrabasses made for the Sousa
band.  There was an article in the Yale Alumni Magazine around 1990 about a
concert given with this horn - with the encore piece being, natch,
Asleep in the Deep.

The Yale Band has their own office and phone number, if anyone wants to
find out more.

Robert Groover   groover@technopatents.com   (PGP-capable)
Member ECS, AVS, ACM, OSA, Sen.Mem.IEEE, Reg'd Patent Atty
Groover & Associates, 17000 Preston Rd. #230, Dallas 75248
1-972-380-6333                          fax 1-972-380-4445
             http://www.technopatents.com/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 98 00:34:00 -0500
From: Richard Fenno
Subject: Re:  Bass sax

> I've been using a large (classic hard rubber) bari mouth piece
> on my Buescher bass. Same tone and volume, and I haven't noticed
> any additional tuning problems 8-)
> This gets me a much wider selection of much cheaper reeds.
>
>       b.

Might also make a plug for Ron Coelho's bass mpc, which can use either
size reed. Big chamber, lots of WHOOSH. When I need to focus hard on the
notes, I use my bari mpc, but just when I'm recording something.

Ron will custom build a bass mpc for less than a couple hundred bucks to
your specs.

Richard Fenno * Austin, Texas
Saxophones, Woodwinds, Arranging, Music Prep
Author of Claris Home Page 3 for Windows & Macintosh, a Visual QuickStart Guide

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:54:30 EST
From: LeliaLoban
Subject: Bass sax

Trent Ruane wrote,
>>I recently acquired a Pan-American bass sax....[snip] This one has a matte
gold finish (which kinda looks like paint). The fellow I bought it from was
told that it was probably used in a military band, and that particular finish
was used because it was very low maintenance. Any thoughts?

Heliconman wrote,
>>I've heard some discussion about gold lacquer, but never seen an example of
it. I understand it increases the value of the horn, so think seriously about
stripping or refinishing your monster!>>

Congratulations on your monster!  Your daughter may learn to love it.  My
mother swears that when I was a baby, the first time I heard my Uncle Ed sing
an opera aria in his thundering basso profundo, I reacted with shrieks of
horror, but he clearly started something.  You might have, too.  Just wait
until she grows up enough to beg you for a sarrusophone....

The description of "matte finish" on your bass sax and your suspicion that it
might be paint doesn't sound like the "good" kind of gold lacquer to me,
however.  Look for tell-tales, such as drips, clotting in the engraving,
unevenness and any signs of what's underneath.  It might be after-market
lacquer or paint covering silver plate that took too much time to keep
polished in a military band, for instance.  Many old bass saxes, mine
included, were silver-plated.  Keeping a silver-plated horn that size looking
spiffy must have taken some effort in the days before 3-M anti-tarnish strips!
I think that getting rid of after-market lacquer or paint would be
restoration, not vandalism.

At flea markets, I've seen many old band instruments with after-market lacquer
or paint jobs, especially sousaphones with school emblems emblazoned on the
bells.  One dealer at the Renninger's Extravaganza (an outdoor antiques bazaar
and flea market held several times per year in Kutztown, Pennsylvania) in the
spring of 1997 offered three Buescher True Tone alto saxes, a metal clarinet
and a flute for sale, all with thick, opaque lacquer in a metallic gold color,
clearly not the stock finish.  It was a sloppily-accomplished amateur job
complete with nice big drips, and was scuffed up enough for me to see that one
sax was lacquered brass underneath, while the other two were silver-plated.  I
can't remember how much the dealer wanted, but I do remember thinking that it
was way too much, considering that all three saxes were in terrible condition,
aside from the paint.  The dealer told me he bought these sorry specimens at a
school surplus auction, so these were retired student marching band
instruments, representing an early rendering of a tradition now continued with
the "Endangered Species Series" horns and other hideous, excuse me, I meant to
say *non-traditional* hues of lacquer now offered by L. A. Sax.  Be glad it's
only gold and not zebra stripes.

Lelia
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Tradition is really just complacency and slackness."
-- attributed to Gustav Mahler in Gattey's Peacocks on the Podium
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 10:27:44 -0600
From: "Steve Rea"
Subject: Key Sticking

Alas, I've found a problem with my new Buffet 1193 Low C
bass clarinet.  :-(   When I release the low E (middle B) key,
it only lifts the pad about halfway up when the low F (middle C)
is held down, such as when moving from low E to low F or when
trilling between low E and low F (or middle B and middle C).

Is there anything that can be done for this without having to send
the instrument back to Woodwind And Brasswind for repairs?  (I've
got a series of concerts coming up next week that I need it for, so,
sending it back and getting it fixed or getting a replacement in time
probably couldn't be done.)
 

Stephen Rea   http://www.uaex.edu/srea
Oracle Certified Professional in Database Administration
University of Arkansas Cooperative Extension Service

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 10:54:44 -0600
From: "Steve Rea"
Subject: 3-M anti-tarnish strips?

What are "3-M anti-tarnish strips"?

Stephen Rea http://www.uaex.edu/srea
Oracle Certified Professional in Database Administration
University of Arkansas Cooperative Extension Service
 

>>> <LeliaLoban> 12/01 9:54 AM >>>
Keeping a silver-plated horn that size looking
spiffy must have taken some effort in the days before 3-M anti-tarnish =
strips!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 08:33:27 -0600
From: "Sam Henson"
Subject: Re: Subcontrabass Tuba Played by Hoffnung

I have a picture of a physicist holding a subcontrabass tuba in EEEb if
anyone is interested in seeing the beast.
 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:09:31 -0600 (CST)
From: Jean Adler
Subject: Re: Key Sticking

Steven,
I still find my Buffet to have "quirks" after a year and a half.  By
quirks I mean pads that aren't completely sealing.  It is my experience
that this is normal with a new instrument.  How long have you had the
instrument?  In my part of the world where the winters are cold and dry it
is not uncommon to have all sorts of problems with an instrument.  Do you
have changes in humidity, etc. that may be affecting the instrument?
Could a key be bent?  When you consider the length of some of the key
mechanisms I am amazed the instruments ever work.
Other than that, how do you like the horn?
Jean Adler

On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Steve Rea wrote:
> Alas, I've found a problem with my new Buffet 1193 Low C
> bass clarinet.  :-(   When I release the low E (middle B) key,
> it only lifts the pad about halfway up when the low F (middle C)
> is held down, such as when moving from low E to low F or when
> trilling between low E and low F (or middle B and middle C).
>
> Is there anything that can be done for this without having to send
> the instrument back to Woodwind And Brasswind for repairs?  (I've
> got a series of concerts coming up next week that I need it for, so,
> sending it back and getting it fixed or getting a replacement in time
> probably couldn't be done.)
 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:43:49 -0800
From: Grant Green
Subject: Re: Key Sticking

>Is there anything that can be done for this without having to send
>the instrument back to Woodwind And Brasswind for repairs?  (I've
>got a series of concerts coming up next week that I need it for, so,
>sending it back and getting it fixed or getting a replacement in time
>probably couldn't be done.)

Stephen, sounds like a (probably) minor adjustment.  First, check to see if
the key moves smoothly and easily, or if it appears to bind.  If not, check
to make sure that the spring is in position.  If the key doesn't come all
the way up with the F key down, but *does* come up with the F key raised,
my guess is that the spring on the E key has slipped off its nib.  If you
feel binding (resistance) in the key, try backing out the post screws a
*little* bit (I mean the screws that hold the key onto the posts, not the
posts themselves) and see if that helps.  If not, the posts may be a bit
twisted, or the key may just need oil.  If twisted, a repairman is your
best bet, but it should be a pretty quick job.

Good luck!

Grant
 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green  http://www.contrabass.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 13:50:02 EST
From: NINEWINDS
Subject: Re:  Re: Bass sax

That video sounds very interesting about the bass Saxophone. Can you tell me
more-how long etc. etc. is it a history- featured performers?

Vinny

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 13:24:36 -0600
From: "Steve Rea"
Subject: Re: Key Sticking

I've had it a month.  The problem is still happening after an hour
into practice, so, it should have gotten acclimated by then.  I can't
see that anything is bent, and the E (B) works OK when the F (C)
isn't being pressed.

You're right about the mechanisms.  Some of it is pretty complicated,
especially the double vent on the 1193-2.  It's also strange that there
are 3 keys for the low D, but only 1 key for the low Eb (if I remember
right).  And, it plays great, even middle A and Bb, which sounded
airy and never in tune on my previous horn, plus an octave higher
range than usually possible on the previous one.

There is one quite unexpected "problem" though.  I think I'm
allergic to the silver on the keys!  I knew I had a problem with
steel (from working in shop class), and I'm wearing glasses with
titanium frames (since the acid in my skin ate away other metals).
I'm trying the thin cotton gloves for now, but, I don't like it, since
they take away some of the "feel" and sometimes slip off the
keys or catch other keys, especially on the pinkie keys.

Stephen Rea  http://www.uaex.edu/srea
Oracle Certified Professional in Database Administration
University of Arkansas Cooperative Extension Service
 

>>> Jean Adler 12/01 10:09 AM >>>

Steven,
I still find my Buffet to have "quirks" after a year and a half.  By
quirks I mean pads that aren't completely sealing.  It is my experience
that this is normal with a new instrument.  How long have you had the
instrument?  In my part of the world where the winters are cold and dry it
is not uncommon to have all sorts of problems with an instrument.  Do you
have changes in humidity, etc. that may be affecting the instrument?
Could a key be bent?  When you consider the length of some of the key
mechanisms I am amazed the instruments ever work.
Other than that, how do you like the horn? =20
Jean Adler
 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 15:33:03 -0500
From: Michael Cogswell
Subject: RE: Key Sticking

M. Francois Kloc, the US Buffet factory technician, is on the Klarinet list.
If you are anywhere near the "factory" he apparently will adjust it to suit
you and correct any problems "while you wait".  You can also e-mail him to
find out when he is visiting a city near you.  From the e-mail I've seen he
is quite dedicated to seeing that Buffet customers are completely happy with
their instruments (and apparently at no charge.)

------------------------------

End of list V1 #41
******************
------------------------
 

 
Next Digest ->
Previous Digest <-
Index
Top