From: "Lelia Loban"
Subject: [CB] New ebay items
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 20:06:19 -0500
> eBay - Favourite Search: contrabass clarinet
>These two items look suspicious.
George Wright wrote,
>>Seller frinpul has been noticed on another mailing list
I monitor
>>The consensus is that it's an inept scam.
Yes, I don't follow the eBay auctions, but that seller also got
noticed on the klarinet list, with the same consensus.
Happy New Year to fellow sonic cellar-dwellers!
Lelia Loban
Cthulhu Worshippers for School Prayer!
---------------------------------------------------------
From: Richard
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 22:58:36 EST
Subject: Re: [CB] New ebay items
In a message dated 1/8/05 8:06:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Lelia writes:
<< Yes, I don't follow the eBay auctions, but that seller
also got noticed on
the klarinet list, with the same consensus. >>
Perhaps we should all go to Ebay and report several of these
auctions as fraudulent, and save some people some frustration and money.
Richard
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Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 23:35:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Paul Gennrich
Subject: Re: [CB] New ebay items
--- Richard wrote:
> Perhaps we should all go to Ebay and report several
of these auctions as
> fraudulent, and save some people some frustration and money.
Richard, perhaps we should go to Ebay and insist that they
require actual photos, serial numbers and valid descriptions for
musical instruments (and the rest of the items listed) to reduce the
fraudulent listings in the first place! In addition, the
perpetrators of these fraudulent listings should be prosecuted for
their frauds. Those steps might make more sense....
Paul Gennrich
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From: "Bradley Stevens"
Subject: Re: [CB] New ebay items
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 08:52:05 -0800
The beauty of requiring serial numbers and actual photos and
descriptions that are specific to the instrument and not just lifting
the photo and descriptions from Woodwind and Brasswind (for instance)
is compelling. And if eBay adopts such a policy change, the hope
would be that they would have less fraud complaints to sift through.
The problem lays with its enforcement. eBay doesn't seem to have
the time to judge if a seller uses a photo from a dealer site because
they, the seller, doesn't have a digital camera or a scanner, or
because they don't have the item at all. I've been on the short
end of a couple of eBay scams and when I complained I got an automated
response telling me they received my complaint and never heard from
them again. Scammers know this better than the general public and
are gleefully willing to caveat your emptor. I'd just like to
know how to get past the automated responses and argue with eBay on the
topic of incentives for them to keep things fair. They know that
99% of the time transactions go off without a hitch, probably for them
losing out 1% of the time is an acceptable risk and why don't those
registered users learn to accept a small percentage of scam. It makes
me think of the line from that old Huns song - You learn it fast, 'cuz
you know it's true- You don't find justice 'til it finds YOU!
Good luck,
Bradley Stevens
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Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 11:14:53 -0600
From: jim
Subject: Re: [CB] New ebay items
> eBay doesn't seem to have the time
eBay doesn't seem to have any people. Nor PayPal. Try to get a
coherent response from PayPal, you're wasting your time.
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Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 13:13:46 -0500
From: Edward Branham
Subject: Re: [CB] New ebay items
Why does eBay bear any more responsibility than a newspaper that
publishes classified ads? Is the phone company responsible
when someone places an obscene phone call? Internet Services
typically fall into the same category. Imagine the costs driven
by the labor hours it would take to verify the legitimacy of every ad
placed / auction offered. eBay would not exist in its present
form.
It is traditionally a buyer's responsibility to satisfy her/him
self as to the quality of the goods being considered. If you get
taken in by a scam, there are fraud laws. Yes, that can be a
tough avenue to pursue.
I don't like it either, but that's the reality of this
particular marketplace at this particular time.
--
Way back home in the wild woods of my past
I ask
What becomes of a man
Who leaves behind the memory of youth
Instead of looking back to live again?
-- Phil Keaggy
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Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 10:53:43 -0800
From: "Chuck Guzis"
Subject: Re: [CB] New ebay items
On 1/9/2005, Edward Branham wrote:
>Why does eBay bear any more responsibility than a newspaper
that
>publishes classified ads? Is the phone company
responsible when
>someone places an obscene phone call? Internet
Services typically fall
>into the same category. Imagine the costs driven by
the labor hours it
>would take to verify the legitimacy of every ad placed /
auction
>offered. eBay would not exist in its present form.
Well, in short, I think the big difference is that my newspaper
accepts a fee for publishing my advertisement. The contract has
been fulfilled when my ad appears in the paper and the business
relationship ends. Similarly, my telephone company's sole
responsibility is to connect a caller with my telephone and provide
satisfactory voice-quality service. They take no interest in the
content of the call, and in fact, are prohibited from doing so.
However, eBay extracts not only a fee for the auction listing,
but it also conducts the auction and extracts a percentage commission
on the sale. In this light, they are no different from Christie's
or Sotherby's in that they are acting as an auctioneer. That they
sometimes do not serve as intermediary for collection (although the
PayPal relationship puts that in some question) but collect their
commission from the seller is immaterial. Not only that, but eBay
does take an interest in my purchases and proffers similar items to me
when my bid fails to secure the purchase of an item. So they are
very intimately involved in the buyer-seller relationship.
Auction houses are burdened with the responsibility of
determining the bonafides of the merchandise they offer, along with the
qualifications of a bidder. In that respect, eBay, internet or
not, should not be exempt from due dilligence. Indeed, since as a
bidder on eBay, I am not afforded the opportunity to inspect the
merchandise first-hand, one might argue that eBay's responsibility to
bidders is even greater than traditional auction houses.
Were eBay to act merely as a classified ad conduit, taking no
more part in a transaction than simply showing the availability of an
item, your argument would hold some merit. But the fact is that
they are far more intimately involved and interested in the transaction
between buyer and seller.
The issue of "it would cost too much" is immaterial--being the
1500 pound "gorilla" of the online auction business, they could easily
adjust their rates to fund due dilligence. The nature of the operation
of eBay has chosen to engage in would seem to mandate that they be
bound by the same duties and obligations that the rest of the
non-online auction universe is.
Best regards,
Chuck
---------------------------------------------------------
From: Fred
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 16:42:14 EST
Subject: Re: [CB] New ebay items
In a message dated 1/9/05 12:16:15 PM, jim writes:
<< eBay doesn't seem to have any people. Nor PayPal. Try
to get a coherent
response from PayPal, you're wasting your time. >>
Jim-
In the past I've gotten a response from spoof@ebay.com and
spoof@paypal.com. I think they are the same people. There
must be an address for other problems besides "phishing" messages.
Fred
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 16:25:27 -0600
From: jim
Subject: Re: [CB] New ebay items
> In the past I've gotten a response from spoof@ebay.com and
spoof@paypal.com.
> I think they are the same people. There must be an
address for other
> problems besides "phishing" messages.
You are correct, they are pretty good about responding to this
type of fraud.
Maybe what is needed are trusted "expert" groups, included would
be the contrabass.com community, the IDRS people, etc., etc.. These
groups would likely take great pleasure in highlighting auctions that
are likely fraud, they would do it for free, and in this manner eBay
could place a priority on the complaints these trusted groups submit.
It is worth noting that previous eBay auctions have been
suspended after scams have been noted on this list, presumably because
someone here took action.
Jim
***End of Contrabass Digest***