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Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 20:03:57 -0800
From: "Timothy J. Tikker"
Subject: Re: [CB] Foot terminologyAs a token organist here, I should pipe up (*ahem!*) on the topic of foot-pitch terminology.
The term started by referring to the speaking length of the longest pipe of a rank which played on
the keyboard's lowest note, normally C two octaves below middle C. For a regular set of open
pipes, that's 8 feet. So an 8' stop plays at unison pitch. Of course stopped pipes are only half
as long for that pitch; in older terminology, these were sometimes referred to by their actual
pitch, sometimes at their sounding pitch, perhaps qualified as "8' pitch". Nowadays, the pitch is
referred to rather than the actual physical length.An octave higher is 4' pitch; two octaves higher 2' pitch; three octaves higher 1' pitch, and so
on. An octave lower is 16', two octaves lower 32', and three octaves lower 64'. There are also
mutation pitches, playing harmonics which aren't merely octaves, e.g. 2-2/3', a 12th higher;
1-3/5', a seventeenth higher, etc.Now... in referring to other instruments, there could be some confusion in applying this
terminology. One could call a piccolo a 4' instrument in the sense that it plays an octave higher
than written. However, since it's lowest pitch is D of the 1' octave, from that point of view
this terminology is not accurate. Now, with the bassoon, which plays at written pitch, and whose
lowest note is just a whole-tone below 8' C, the term "8' instrument" would be pretty accurate, as
would 16' instrument for the contrabassoon. And so forth...On harpsichords, the footages are borrowed straight from organ designations, regardless of the
physical length of the instrument; it's purely a convenient convention -- one which figures since
historically so many organists were also harpsichordists.- Tim Tikker
---------------------------------------------------------
From: Fmmck
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 23:17:24 EST
Subject: Re: [CB] Foot terminologyIn a message dated 1/17/01 8:04:13 PM, tjtikker writes:
<< Now, with the bassoon, which plays at written pitch, and whose
lowest note is just a whole-tone below 8' C, the term "8' instrument" would
be pretty accurate >>Tim-
I'm a non-music major trying to understand the discussion from the position
of ignorance. Part of my problem is accepting statements that an instrument
of a certain actual length is described as having a radically different
length, up to four times longer.I understand that an eight foot contra bass clarinet's lowest note would have
the same pitch as a sixteen foot open organ pipe. However, if the clarinet
were to be extended to one note lower, it apparently becomes a member of a
family described by an open organ pipe of almost four times its length, or
thirty two feet in this example. If I understand correctly, there is a
tradition of naming instruments according to where their lowest note falls
with respect to octave groups (ranks) of organ pipes whose longest pipes are
128', 64', 32', et cetera, even though they might be the highest note in that
group.To me, this sounds like a word game where the winner can say his instrument
is much bigger than yours, even though it only plays one note lower!Fred McKenzie
MMB
---------------------------------------------------------Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 09:55:06 +0000
From: David Taylor
Subject: Re: [CB] Foot terminologyFmmck writes
>In a message dated 1/17/01 8:04:13 PM, tjtikker writes:
>
><< Now, with the bassoon, which plays at written pitch, and whose
>lowest note is just a whole-tone below 8' C, the term "8' instrument" would
>be pretty accurate >>
>
>Tim-
>
>I'm a non-music major trying to understand the discussion from the position
>of ignorance. Part of my problem is accepting statements that an instrument
>of a certain actual length is described as having a radically different
>length, up to four times longer.
>
>I understand that an eight foot contra bass clarinet's lowest note would have
>the same pitch as a sixteen foot open organ pipe. However, if the clarinet
>were to be extended to one note lower, it apparently becomes a member of a
>family described by an open organ pipe of almost four times its length, or
>thirty two feet in this example. If I understand correctly, there is a
>tradition of naming instruments according to where their lowest note falls
>with respect to octave groups (ranks) of organ pipes whose longest pipes are
>128', 64', 32', et cetera, even though they might be the highest note in that
>group.Not with brass instruments - 9' Bb, 13' Eb, 18' Bb, 12' G, 7' D - all
these and more are standardly used (over here at least). It wasn't my
impression that this was how it worked for winds either?Dave
---------------------------------------------------------Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 10:33:36 +0000
From: David Taylor
Subject: Re: [CB] Foot terminologyDavid Taylor writes
> Fmmck writes
>>In a message dated 1/17/01 8:04:13 PM, tjtikker writes:
>>
>><< Now, with the bassoon, which plays at written pitch, and whose
>>lowest note is just a whole-tone below 8' C, the term "8' instrument" would
>>be pretty accurate >>
>>
>>Tim-
>>
>>I'm a non-music major trying to understand the discussion from the position
>>of ignorance. Part of my problem is accepting statements that an instrument
>>of a certain actual length is described as having a radically different
>>length, up to four times longer.
>>
>>I understand that an eight foot contra bass clarinet's lowest note would have
>>the same pitch as a sixteen foot open organ pipe. However, if the clarinet
>>were to be extended to one note lower, it apparently becomes a member of a
>>family described by an open organ pipe of almost four times its length, or
>>thirty two feet in this example. If I understand correctly, there is a
>>tradition of naming instruments according to where their lowest note falls
>>with respect to octave groups (ranks) of organ pipes whose longest pipes are
>>128', 64', 32', et cetera, even though they might be the highest note in that
>>group.
>
>Not with brass instruments - 9' Bb, 13' Eb, 18' Bb, 12' G, 7' D - all
>these and more are standardly used (over here at least). It wasn't my
>impression that this was how it worked for winds either?
>
>DaveOkay, I know it's bad form to reply to your own post, but that last
sentence makes no sense. I meant - I've never seen woodwind instruments
referred to as described by Fred, above.Dave
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 13:18:54 -0700
From: Grant Green
Subject: Re: [CB] Foot terminology
Reply-To: contra-new2@contrabass.comFred said:
>I'm a non-music major trying to understand the discussion from the position
>of ignorance. Part of my problem is accepting statements that an instrument
>of a certain actual length is described as having a radically different
>length, up to four times longer.You're not alone in thinking that this is goofy nomenclature ;-)
1. Frequency
On one hand, there is a system for designating which "C" one is talking about, by referring to the approximate length of an (open) organ pipe that would produce that note. Under this system, middle C is 2'C. There is an alternate system that names C's by reference to the piano keyboard, with the lowest C on the piano keyboard being C1. Under this system, middle C (which is actually *also* a piano keyboard reference) is C4, the C an octave below middle C is C3, etc. (There are also other systems, in which octaves are designated CC, C, c, cc, ccc, etc., or C', C, c, c', c", c''', etc., and names, e.g., the contrabass octave from C1 to C2, the bass octave from C2 to C3, etc.) In every system I know of, each octave is considered as starting with C. The organ and piano notations correspond as follows:
C-1 64' C C0 32' C C1 16' C C2 8' C C3 4' C C4 2' C (middle C) C5 1' C C6 1/2' C (6" C?) We could instead designate everything in terms of frequency (e.g., "263 Hz C"), but the exact numbers would depend on tuning (A=440 or A=442?) and temperament (usually equal tempered today, but not always).
2. Transposition
The system of naming instruments as 8', 4', 16' , etc., indicates only their octave transposition. This makes sense in the case of organ stops, because the range of the *stop* has little or nothing to do with the range of the instrument for which the stop is named. For example, the stoplist for the Glatter-G=F6tz Rosales organ at the Claremont United Church of Christ (I'm reading from Tim's CD booklet) has an 8' flute and a 16' flute (pedal), an 8' gemshorn, an 8' crumhorn, a 16' bassoon, an 8' viola de gamba, an 8' oboe, etc. If I understand correctly, stops designated as 16' will sound an octave lower than anything designated 8', 32' will be two octaves lower, while 4' sounds an octave higher, and the any given stop may or may not have pipes that go all the way to 32' (e.g., a 32' flute would play two octaves below the 8' flute, but it might not be available in the lowest octave of the keyboard if the pipes stopped at 16'). Conversely, the pipes for a 4' stop might extend into the 8'C octave.While this system makes a lot of sense for the organist, I see only limited applicability to non-keyboard instruments. If we were discussing transposition of woodwinds, it might make sense to say that the flute, clarinet, bassoon, tuba, and cello were all 8' instruments (sounding in the same octave as written), while the bass clarinet and contrabassoon are 16' instruments (sounding an octave lower than written). However, when discussing *ranges*, I think it makes no sense at all - more misleading than enlightening. This notation says only that the music for the 16' instrument is written an octave higher than the instrument sounds, without any indication of which octaves the instrument is capable of reaching. Further, by changing one's notation, one changes what would seem to be a characteristic of the instrument. For example, if one writes for garklein (the ~6" piccolo recorder) at the pitch it sounds, it becomes an 8' instrument: if one writes for it an octave lower, it is suddenly a 4' instrument, and if one writes for it as if for a flute (e.g., down to middle C), it then becomes a 2' instrument.
>I understand that an eight foot contra bass clarinet's lowest note would have
>the same pitch as a sixteen foot open organ pipe. However, if the clarinet
>were to be extended to one note lower, it apparently becomes a member of a
>family described by an open organ pipe of almost four times its length, or
>thirty two feet in this example. If I understand correctly, there is a
>tradition of naming instruments according to where their lowest note falls
>with respect to octave groups (ranks) of organ pipes whose longest pipes are
>128', 64', 32', et cetera, even though they might be the highest note in that
>group.Actually, the "low C" bass and contrabass clarinets *do* reach a step below, as does the bassoon. The extended bass clarinet and bassoon both reach Bb1, while the contrabassoon and extended contrabass clarinet both reach Bb0. I would still consider the bassoon and bass clarinet as mainly 8', and the contrabass clarinet and contrabassoon as 16', though.
>To me, this sounds like a word game where the winner can say his instrument
>is much bigger than yours, even though it only plays one note lower!And this is the probable cause of a certain amount of confusion, such as from one maker referring to his contrabassoon as capable of reaching subcontrabass Bb (aka Bb0), leading to the misunderstanding that he had made a subcontrabassoon.
Grant
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green
ecode:contrabass http://www.contrabass.com
Professional Fool -> http://www.mp3.com/ProFools
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---------------------------------------------------------From: "Corwin D. Moore"
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 18:33:45 EST
Subject: Re: [CB] Foot terminology>You're not alone in thinking that this is goofy nomenclature ;-)
>
>... There is an alternate system that names C's by reference to
>the piano keyboard, with the lowest C on the piano keyboard being C1.Grant,
Thanks MUCH for your enlightened recommendation about using the
piano-based terminology. This will help a lot!Perhaps we should also develop a standard reference to indicate the
direction and degree of transposition. This is sometimes based on clef as
well (such as for treble-clef euphonium parts).- Corwin Moore
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