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Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 23:59:40 +0000 (GMT)
From: Dafydd y garreg wen
Subject: tubing>Lawrence Johns asked about formulae for calculating tube length.
Use the formula c = f * lambda, for a moderately accurate calculation,
where c is the speed of sound, f is the frequency and lambda is the tube
length. f will be different for an open or closed pipe (most things are
closed - I suppose that a flute for example, would be open, as neither end
is closed off). For a closed pipe, use the frequency of the 2nd
harmonic. For an open pipe, use the fundamental frequency. So an open pipe
half the length of a closed pipe will sound the same frequency as the
closed pipe.Dave Taylor
disclaimer:- My degree course title might be 'Mathematics Pure and
Applied', but I've not seen anything even remotely applied for 2 years
now. Hence I might be slightly wrong. If you are wiser than I in the ways
of tubes, please correct this.
---------------------------------------------------------Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 19:13:00 -0800
From: "Timothy J. Tikker"
Subject: Catgut Acoustical SocietyThought contrabassers should know about this site:
It's the official site for the Catgut Acoustical Society, engaged in research
on bowed string instruments. There is much information on the Violin Octet
developed by Carleen Hutchins in consultation with Henry Brant and others.Two recordings are offered for sale. I just got the one with the complete
octet played by a group from the St Petersburg Conservatory. I also just got
the Sony Classical one of Yo-Yo Ma playing the Bartok Viola Concerto on the
Alto Violin.In short: the idea is to take the optimal acoustical qualities of the violin
and extend these throughout the whole range of string instrument sizes, plus
adding a few more sizes. After 7 sizes were developed outside the standard
violin, it was found that the latter could be improved as well, thus a complete
octet of new instruments.The lowest, the Bass Violin, is tuned the same as the standard double-bass,
though is larger in size. There's a Small Bass between it and the cello-sized
Baritone Violin.The Tenor is an octave below the standard violin, and the Alto is pitched like
the Viola, though normally held like a cello (which is how Yo-Yo took to it so
well). The standard violin analog is called the Mezzo, and there are two sizes
above it, the highest being an octave violin.The Alto on Ma's recording is really extraordinary: great richness and depth
throughout the range. The full octet on the other Cd is very impressive -- the
bass tones are formidable, as are the high tones of the piccolo violin
demonstrated in the opening Vivaldi concerto.Have a look, and hopefully a listen as well! The site has two photos of the
whole octet, one color, one B&W.- Timothy Tikker
---------------------------------------------------------
From: lawrence johns
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 20:14:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: tubing
--WebTV-Mail-23485-2519
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Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 18:29:41 -0800
From: David Flager
Subject: Re: [Contra digest]> Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 21:13:33 -0500
> From: jim and joyce
> Subject: other woods
> -Mike Barrister would like a cherry or oak bassoon.I know that other types of laminates have been used (the Conn experiment
from the late 40s/early 50s.)**********
Please expand on this subject?
Is there info available in print concerning this & other reports on
alternative materials?tubadave
---------------------------------------------------------From: "J. Daniel Ashton"
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 22:02:14 -0500
Subject: Fifth String Bass
To my great surprise, my parents gave a string bass to my wife and me
this Christmas!I will be teaching my wife to play it. I need to decide now whether
to tune it E - A - D - G from lowest to highest, or to take a
suggestion I saw here and tune it like a cello, C - G - D - A. It's
important to me to pick a tuning and stick with it long enough for
Vicki to learn without getting frustrated by changing strings.I played through the Trout Quintet with my family. The first movement
works with the E - A - D - G tuning. However, the later movements
call for low D several times, and a few times for low C. When I saw
that coming, I retuned it like a cello, C - G - D - A. With a little
thought I was able to adapt, having the most trouble with notes that
used to be open strings. I also had difficulty hitting the notes that
suddenly required a shift: F and F# on the low string, C and C# on the
next, G and G# on the D string.By the way, what instrument did Schumann have in mind when he wrote
this quintet? Did he have a virtuoso with a five-string bass?So, which tuning should Vicki learn first? Most of the music she'll
be playing at first is from the baroque era, so most of it will be
cello-bass music that calls for low D's and C's.I observed a web site stating that one extension manufacturer had
retired. Are other extensions still available? What do they cost?--
J. Daniel Ashton ICQ# 9445142
http://www.southern.edu/~jdashton
PGP key available
---------------------------------------------------------From: "J. Daniel Ashton"
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 22:13:21 -0500
Subject: Re: ContraBass Balalaika>>>>>> "mcg" == michael c grogg wrote:
mcg> Happy holidays to all, and I hope you all found the Contrabass
mcg> instrument of your dreams under your tree yesterday.Wow! Thank you for the wish. I was stunned when it came true! My
wife and I received from my parents a brand new Palatino string bass!I don't know where we'll keep it (small apartment) or how we'll haul
it from place to place (one Pontiac Grand Am, no minivan or anything
else) but we're completely delighted!--
J. Daniel Ashton ICQ# 9445142
http://www.southern.edu/~jdashton
PGP key available
---------------------------------------------------------Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 23:06:55 -0500
From: Bob Thomas
Subject: Re: Fifth String Bassabout his new bass fiddle, J. Daniel Ashton wrote:
>I will be teaching my wife to play it. I need to decide now whether
>to tune it E - A - D - G from lowest to highest, or to take a
>suggestion I saw here and tune it like a cello, C - G - D - A...E-A-D-G has been standard for a long time, though things
seem to be loosening up a bit lately. Merwin mentioned
the legit bassist with the cello tuning. Jazz bassist
Red Mitchell used that tuning too. Edgar Meyer was using
a D-A-D-A tuning before he got his extension - may have
changed it since then.
If your wife goes looking for another teacher at some point,
that teacher will be expecting a bass tuned in 4ths.
You should understand that in the lower positions at least,
most bass players with small or normal size hands use a
three finger system - 3rd finger is a helper for the 4th.
If the bass were tuned in 5ths, there would be a lot of
extra shifting just playing a scale across the fingerboard,
for instance. Cello players have less distance to cover
and four independently functioning fingers to do it with.Also, there's the issue of string gauges. All the bass
fiddle strings that I know of are designed for the standard
E-A-D-G tuning. Low B/C and high C strings are available
for 5 string basses, and long E strings are available for
basses with extensions. I've never seen a set designed to
be tuned in 5ths. Don't know what those guys do.>I played through the Trout Quintet with my family...
>...By the way, what instrument did Schumann have in mind when he wrote
>this quintet? Did he have a virtuoso with a five-string bass?I've heard that it was commissioned by an amateur cello
player who requested the bass part for support. (?)>I observed a web site stating that one extension manufacturer had
>retired. Are other extensions still available? What do they cost?Mechanical extensions are sold by Kolstein and David Gage in
NYC and Lemur in CA: http://www.lemur-music.com
Fingered extensions are offered by the Bass Viol Shop in
Cincinnati and John Michael Smith in St.Paul.
There's lots of fitting & carving of the scroll involved in
the installation, so you'll need a sympathetic repair person.
If you find one of those, he/she might be willing to make one
for you.Tuning the E string to D when necessary, works very nicely,
I think. Its not hard to get used to looking a step higher
for notes on that string. Tuned to low C that string gets
pretty loose and rattly.Hope this hasn't muddied the waters. Good luck.
b.
---------------------------------------------------------Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 23:14:06 -0500
From: Bob Thomas
Subject: bass transportationJ. Daniel Ashton wrote:
> ...My
>wife and I received from my parents a brand new Palatino string bass!
>
>I don't know where we'll keep it (small apartment) or how we'll haul
>it from place to place (one Pontiac Grand Am, no minivan or anything
>else) but we're completely delighted!I know a guy who sawed off the scroll so he could wedge his
bass into his VW bug.
(I'm not necessarily recommending this... )
b.
---------------------------------------------------------Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 22:03:59 -0800
From: Grant Green
Subject: Contrabass oboesThis weekend, while reading up on ophicleides, I ran across the following
passage (by Strauss) in Berlioz's Treatise on Instrumentation:"Through the courtesy of M. Gevaert, I heard in the Brussels
Conservatory a double-bass oboe, whose tone had not he slightest similarity
with the low tones of the bassoon. It was, down to the extreme depth, the
typical shawm timbre of the oboe. If, in the near future, our ears should
demand even finer differentiations of sound and a still greater wealth of
tonal colors, we might re-introduce this instrument into the orchestra;
thus, each individual timbre would be represented by a whole family group
instead of the one or two members we have at present...."
So, a contrabass oboe! Does anyone have any more information on the topic?Grant
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 14:04:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Contrabass oboes
From: michael c grogg>So, a contrabass oboe! Does anyone have any more information on the
>topic?
>
>Grant
Nothing on an Oboe, but I remember going to see the New York Pro Musica
in the early 1970's. They had a Great Bass Shawm that had a wonderful
warm low sound. The player would stand on a low platform, and tilt the
instrument back to get the reed in his mouth. Quite a sight. I must
admit I was more impressed at the time by two of the female singers who
performed topless that night, but that is another story.
MG
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 13:56:08 -0500
Subject: Re: ContraBass Balalaika
From: michael c grogg>>>>>>> "mcg" == michael c grogg wrote:
>mcg> Happy holidays to all, and I hope you all found the Contrabass
>mcg> instrument of your dreams under your tree yesterday.
>
>Wow! Thank you for the wish. I was stunned when it came true! My
>wife and I received from my parents a brand new Palatino string bass!
>
>I don't know where we'll keep it (small apartment) or how we'll haul
>it from place to place (one Pontiac Grand Am, no minivan or anything
>else) but we're completely delighted!For what it is worth, more than once I carried my string bass, and two
tubas in my VW Rabbit. It is a bit easier with a hatchback, but I
imagine you will figure out a way with your car, or consider exchanging
it for a more practical vehicle.MG
---------------------------------------------------------
From: "J. Daniel Ashton"
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:07:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Fifth String Bass
>>>>>> "BT" == Bob Thomas wrote:
BT> If your wife goes looking for another teacher at some point,
BT> that teacher will be expecting a bass tuned in 4ths.
BT> You should understand that in the lower positions at least,
BT> most bass players with small or normal size hands use a
BT> three finger system - 3rd finger is a helper for the 4th.
BT> If the bass were tuned in 5ths, there would be a lot of
BT> extra shifting just playing a scale across the fingerboard,
BT> for instance.BT> Also, there's the issue of string gauges. All the bass
BT> fiddle strings that I know of are designed for the standard
BT> E-A-D-G tuning. Low B/C and high C strings are available
BT> for 5 string basses, and long E strings are available for
BT> basses with extensions. I've never seen a set designed to
BT> be tuned in 5ths. Don't know what those guys do.BT> Tuning the E string to D when necessary, works very nicely,
BT> I think. Its not hard to get used to looking a step higher
BT> for notes on that string. Tuned to low C that string gets
BT> pretty loose and rattly.You mentioned precisely the points I'm worried about. My hands are
larger than average (I stand 6' 1"). Vicki's hands are not tiny, but
they're not as large as mine. Even with my reach I must shift to play a
scale when the strings are tuned in fifths.I replaced the shipped strings with a brand new set of Pirastros. The
E string tuned down to C was too loose to really satisfy, although I
made it work. Would I be able to swap it for a string intended as low
B/C?I'm beginning to lean back towards tuning in 4ths, with an eye towards
a C extension sometime in the future. Thanks for the pointers to
extension sources.--
J. Daniel Ashton ICQ# 9445142
http://www.southern.edu/~jdashton
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:57:18 -0500
From: Bob Thomas
Subject: Re: Fifth String BassI wrote:
>BT> Also, there's the issue of string gauges. All the bass fiddle strings
>that I know of are designed for the standard E-A-D-G tuning... ...I've
>never seen a set designed to be tuned in 5ths. Don't know what those guys do.and J. Daniel Ashton wrote:
>I replaced the shipped strings with a brand new set of Pirastros. The E
>string tuned down to C was too loose to really satisfy, although I made it
>work. Would I be able to swap it for a string intended as low B/C?
I don't think strings are returnable after they've been
installed. I've been thinking about strings for cello type
tuning tho. Some strings, including Pirastro Flexocors and
FlatChroms are available individually in versions including
"low 5th string" and "solo tuning." (Sets designated for solo
tuning are intended to be tuned one step higher than standard -
the bass becomes a transposing instrument; bass player reads
as normal but sounds a step higher; accompaniment is transposed
to the new key... Don't know whose idea THAT was, but it
happened.)So... to put together a set of C-G-D-A bass strings you would
need a low 5th string to replace the low E, a standard A string
tuned a step low, a standard D string (no problem), and a "solo"
G string tuned to A as intended. The only string that wouldn't
be tuned to its intended pitch would be the A string - now a
full step too low. That one could possibly be tweaked by finding
strings that come in heavy/medium/light gauges. Some Thomastiks
do, I think.
Lemur catalog has lots of helpful info on different makes & models
of strings and all the options available.
b.
---------------------------------------------------------
From: Grant Green
Subject: RE: contras, metal v. wood
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 12:15:18 -0800
>wood. It, too, sounded great. Just recently I had the
>chance to do a repad on a curved Leblanc contra-bass,
>made of nickel-silver. The tone was a bit brighter
>than the wooden ones. I chalk it up to personal taste.If I remember correctly, the metal instruments have a narrower bore than the
wooden horns, which could account for the brighter timbre.Grant
---------------------------------------------------------
From: Grant Green
Subject: RE: The pitch of the horn
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 12:23:22 -0800>OK you physics majors-please explain. I read where a 2 ft tube will
>produce the note middle C,and so if the tube is doubled in length. it
>will produce an octave lowered C? So if this is the case, a Bb tenor
>sax is twice as short in tube length as a Bb bass sax? So is there a
>mathematical formula in determining the pitch of a horn? Boreing stuff
>isnt it-byeYes, a Bb tenor is twice as long (unfolded) as a Bb soprano, and the Bb bass
is twice as long (unfolded) as the Bb tenor (unfolded). The Bb soprano is a
bit longer than 2' because the lowest note is Ab (concert). The rule of
thumb is doubling the length lowers the pitch one octave. It is actually a
bit more complicated: there are correction factors for the bell width, and
for the truncation imposed by the mouthpiece. For the best explanation,
look up "Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics" by A. Benade (available in
paperback pretty reasonably).Grant
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 13:13:29 -0700
From: Grant Green
Subject: Re: Contrabass oboes>Nothing on an Oboe, but I remember going to see the New York Pro Musica
>in the early 1970's. They had a Great Bass Shawm that had a wonderful
>warm low sound. The player would stand on a low platform, and tilt the
>instrument back to get the reed in his mouth. Quite a sight. I mustKeith Loraine makes a pretty good great bass shawm. He plays it
standing up, with the shawm extending far out to the right. Nice
sound, with extension keys taking it down to low G (below the bass
staff).Grant
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green http://www.contrabass.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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