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Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:50:25 -0700
From: Grant Green <gdgreen@contrabass.com>
Subject: Re: comments on some old strings
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com> I just got back my contrabass sarrusophone from being repadded, etc. and
>it plays quite wonderfully now. My repairman is quite a collector,I'd forgotten all about it - care to refresh our recollection as to
brand, etc.?> Now, I would like to dredge up the old debate on the existance on a true
>sub-contrabass sax in Bb (octave below the bass). According to my repairman,
>two have been built by Orsi. He showed me a picture of a friend of his at
>the Orsi factory standing next two the bell of one of them. It was easily
>larger than the bells of any contrabasses I have seen, while not as absurdly
>big as the "prop" subcontras built by Conn or by the Charles Ponte Music
>Company. The other, he says, is somewhere in Paris and it's existance has
>been confirmed to him by Dr. Fred Hemke, saxophone profesor (former?) at
>Northwestern University. Dr. Hemke has supposedly seen the beast. Anyone
>out there in touch with Dr. Hemke who could ask him?
> Now, my only doubts about this are that Grant has been to the Orsi
>factory and I don't remember any mention of the sub-contra bell. Was this
>there, Grant?No, I didn't see anything resembling a saxophone bell larger than a
contra bell. Of course, they do make tubas and other low brass
there. On the other hand, the factory is essentially a very large
room (think "large ballroom"), with a row of shelving up near the
ceiling. Much of the room was dark, as there was only one craftsman
at work on the day I was there (January 2, if I remember right:
everyone was on vacation), and he was working near the front of the
room on a row of sopranino saxes. The general manager showed me
around the factory, with his wife and daughter (the latter spoke
enough English to translate somewhat for us). They knew I was
interested in the deep bass, and showed me their bass saxes,
contrabass sax (at least, the parts they had handy - none assembled -
and the model horn), reed contrabass, tuba, and cimbasso, but no
sub-contra instruments. It could be just that the GM wasn't aware of
those particular horns (I understand he became GM just a few years
ago).> Lastly, I just got back from the Mid-West Band and Orchestra convention
>in Chicago and am happy to report that the original versions of Molly on the
>Shore and Children's March by Grainger are now being republished complete
>with the sarrusophone parts (and a bass oboe part to Children's March!). One
>other Grainger piece also is being republished with it's sarrusophone part,
>but I don't remeber the name of it. A discussion with Kieth Biron (sp?) who
>was at the booth where these publications were being shown revealed two fun
>things. Number one, he recently conducted a performance of the Children's
>march complete with the sarrus part in San Jose (guess who the player was!
>(small world, huh)) and two, while visiting Grainger's widow, he discovered
>that Grainger had an entire collection of sarrusophones, sopranino to
>contrabass, that his widow had GIVEN away just a few months earlier. Ouch.Keith Brion isnot only the Grainger curator, but apparently is also
known for performing Sousa programs dressed as JP Sousa (to critical
acclaim). He's been steadily republishing and arranging Grainger's
works for several years. The Children's March was fun, but
unfortunately the band had two different arrangements: one called for
sarrusophone and included choral parts (for the instrumentalists to
sing), the other was arranged for "modern" concert band (including
contrabass clarinet) and omitted all singing parts. The unfortunate
part is that all the low brass players had the second version, which
covers nearly all the sarrusophone parts (a number of which would
otherwise be solos). Oh well...> I hope this hasn't been too long of a post, but I think the information
>is cool!Not too long at all! At least you didn't use the M*** word ;-)
Grant
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green gdgreen@contrabass.com
http://www.contrabass.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
---------------------------------------------------------Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 21:22:06 -0600
From: Peter Koval <pkoval@usd.edu>
Subject: Re: comments on some old strings
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com
Grant Green wrote:
> CONTRABASS@contrabass.com
> =========================
> *
>
> > I just got back my contrabass sarrusophone from being repadded, etc. and
> >it plays quite wonderfully now. My repairman is quite a collector,
>
> I'd forgotten all about it - care to refresh our recollection as to
> brand, etc.?
>
> > Now, I would like to dredge up the old debate on the existance on a true
> >sub-contrabass sax in Bb (octave below the bass). According to my repairman,
> >two have been built by Orsi. He showed me a picture of a friend of his at
> >the Orsi factory standing next two the bell of one of them. It was easily
> >larger than the bells of any contrabasses I have seen, while not as absurdly
> >big as the "prop" subcontras built by Conn or by the Charles Ponte Music
> >Company. The other, he says, is somewhere in Paris and it's existance has
> >been confirmed to him by Dr. Fred Hemke, saxophone profesor (former?) at
> >Northwestern University. Dr. Hemke has supposedly seen the beast. Anyone
> >out there in touch with Dr. Hemke who could ask him?
> > Now, my only doubts about this are that Grant has been to the Orsi
> >factory and I don't remember any mention of the sub-contra bell. Was this
> >there, Grant?
>
> No, I didn't see anything resembling a saxophone bell larger than a
> contra bell. Of course, they do make tubas and other low brass
> there. On the other hand, the factory is essentially a very large
> room (think "large ballroom"), with a row of shelving up near the
> ceiling. Much of the room was dark, as there was only one craftsman
> at work on the day I was there (January 2, if I remember right:
> everyone was on vacation), and he was working near the front of the
> room on a row of sopranino saxes. The general manager showed me
> around the factory, with his wife and daughter (the latter spoke
> enough English to translate somewhat for us). They knew I was
> interested in the deep bass, and showed me their bass saxes,
> contrabass sax (at least, the parts they had handy - none assembled -
> and the model horn), reed contrabass, tuba, and cimbasso, but no
> sub-contra instruments. It could be just that the GM wasn't aware of
> those particular horns (I understand he became GM just a few years
> ago).
>Upon one of my visits to the Orsi factory around 1980, when it still belonged
to the Orsi family, I was shown what the general manager termed the "subcontrabass
saxophone bell". However, upon comparing it with the contrabass sax prototype
model, it was revealed as a contra sized bell with just a slightly larger flare
and so bell diameter. I took photos of the bell in juxtaposition with a contra
sax that was being built at the time, and this again clearly demonstrated that the
bell was not that of a subcontrabass saxophone. The Orsi family showed me a
collection of their old price lists with illustrations, and none of these included
a subcontrabass saxophone. It appears that this is yet another "red herring" in
the subcontrabass sax saga, and Hemke's 1975 dissertation and other writings of
his that I have read do not mention any subcontrabass made by Orsi or anyone else.
However Hemke did misinterpret some early French information about a "complete
set" of saxophones being exhibited at an international Exhibition in 1849 ( which
he understood meant sopranino through contrabass, and which has been relied upon
by recent writers--such as Paul Cohen in the Saxophone Journal--as proof for the
early appearance of the contrabass sax). I see that Paul has recanted this in a
recent posting, but without saying where his earlier article went astray! Hemke's
dissertation is in fact full of contradictions and errors, but it was the first
comprehensive study of early French sources and so is extremely valuable. Paul
Cohen's writings are always informative and entertaining, so my point above is
just a minor correction rather than acidic criticism (Season's Greetings, Paul, if
you are reading this!!)
Regarding the set of C and F saxophones belonging to Opusnandy's repairman,
can details be posted of the makes and serial numbers of these instruments? I am
sure that F baritone saxophones one existed, since Adolphe Sax's price lists of
1867 and 1885 included them (see Haine's and de Keyser's Catalogue des Instruments
Sax au Musee Instrumental de Bruxelles for details). Buffet's price list of c
1903 also included the F baritone, as reproduced in a volume of Larigot.
Regards,
Peter Koval
pkoval@usd.edu
---------------------------------------------------------
From: "Bret Newton" <jbnbsn99@hotmail.com>
Subject: Bassoon fingering
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 21:34:41 CST
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comTo all the bassoonists on the list,
What is the purpose of the use of the whisper key on the g above middle c?
I can't think of any reasonable answer to this as it does not affect the
sound or pitch and to me it dosent help in getting the note out.
Thanks,
Bret Newton
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 22:47:41 -0500
From: bulshevik <bulshevik@home.com>
Subject: Re: Bassoon fingering
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comFor me, the use of the whisper on the g above middle c is that without
the whisper key, g will not speak on my instrument. As each instrument
and each bassoonist is different, for you the whisper may make no
difference.
--Abi TenenbaumBret Newton wrote:
>
> CONTRABASS@contrabass.com
> =========================
> *
>
> To all the bassoonists on the list,
> What is the purpose of the use of the whisper key on the g above middle c?
> I can't think of any reasonable answer to this as it does not affect the
> sound or pitch and to me it dosent help in getting the note out.
> Thanks,
> Bret Newton
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
> ----------------------
> end contrabass list
---------------------------------------------------------From: Opusnandy@aol.com
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 00:35:33 EST
Subject: Re: comments on some old strings
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comIn a message dated 12/20/99 6:51:05 PM, gdgreen@contrabass.com writes:
<< > I just got back my contrabass sarrusophone from being repadded, etc.
and
>it plays quite wonderfully now. My repairman is quite a collector,I'd forgotten all about it - care to refresh our recollection as to
brand, etc.? >>Sure, it's a Conn Eb Contra, probably the most common sarrusophone around.
Satin finnish with Gold plating on the inside of the bell. Nothing too much
more to tell about it. It plays nice (except for the 4th line D which
doesn't attack well) and has a huge sound. (I was lucky, it came with about
30 actual sarrusophone reeds, about half of which work).Later,
Jon Carreira
---------------------------------------------------------From: Opusnandy@aol.com
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 00:40:31 EST
Subject: Re: Bassoon fingering
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comIn a message dated 12/20/99 9:35:01 PM, jbnbsn99@hotmail.com writes:
<< What is the purpose of the use of the whisper key on the g above middle c?
I can't think of any reasonable answer to this as it does not affect the
sound or pitch and to me it dosent help in getting the note out. >>It does not affect the note on my horn either, but it just feels comfortable
to rest my thumb there. That's what I tell my private students (along with
the fact that you can leave it off in fast passages) and I can't really offer
a better explanation.Jon Carreira
---------------------------------------------------------From: PaulC135@aol.com
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 01:06:59 EST
Subject: Re: [Contra digest]
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comIn a message dated 12/20/99 11:49:54 PM, contrabass-owner@contrabass.com
writes:<< I just got back my contrabass sarrusophone from being repadded, etc. and
it plays quite wonderfully now. My repairman is quite a collector,
especially of saxophones, and provided me with a bunch of interesting
information. First of all, any debate as to whether or not the bari sax in F
exists can be put to rest now. I have held one in my own two hands. It was
in beautiful, silverplated shape and when compared to a standard Eb bari it
is definitely quite smaller. When played to a strobocon tuner it most
definitely is pitched in F. This is not one of the very early ophicliede
shaped saxes I've seen pictures of but a true, modern shaped (albeit keyed
only to hi Eb) bari in F. It is part of my repairman's complete quartet of F
and C saxes (oprano to bari).
Now, I would like to dredge up the old debate on the existance on a true
sub-contrabass sax in Bb (octave below the bass). According to my repairman,
two have been built by Orsi. He showed me a picture of a friend of his at
the Orsi factory standing next two the bell of one of them. It was easily
larger than the bells of any contrabasses I have seen, while not as absurdly
big as the "prop" subcontras built by Conn or by the Charles Ponte Music
Company. The other, he says, is somewhere in Paris and it's existance has
been confirmed to him by Dr. Fred Hemke, saxophone profesor (former?) at
Northwestern University. Dr. Hemke has supposedly seen the beast. Anyone
out there in touch with Dr. Hemke who could ask him? >>These issues come up from time to time. Alas, the baritone in the
collection is a high pitch Eb bari. It will look smaller than a low pitch
horn. The steps necessary to have it approximate a differently-keyed
instrument are extreme, as written to me by the owner of the horn, including
significant mouthpiece alteration, instrument adjustment, etc.etc (this is
for workable pitch throughout the horn, and not just in a particular register.
) It is a testament to the superb playing ability of the owner that he can
manage to wrestle the Evette Schaeffer into near tune. These issues were
recently confirmed by a colleague's personal experience with the horn in
rehearsal.
I wrote about this in some detail years ago in one of my columns in the
Saxophone Journal, and I will be happy to post it if there is interest. By
the way, the owner of the instrument is known throughout the country not only
for his excellent playing, but for the unsurpassed quality of his repair work.
Regarding the sub contrabass: The bell picture does not mean that an
instrument was built or even contemplated. There apparently are no records
or recollections of a horn built by Orsi, nor any other components (parts) or
existence of special mandrels, plans, or molds, etc that would be required.
No mention in catalogs, magazines or newspapers or advertisements. We must
be a little practical here. Something of that gargantuan size would surely
have left some impression (pun intended) somewhere. Dr. Hemke was recently
asked about his recollections (last September). He remembers having a
picture and/or some other references, but could not confirm specifics. Up to
now he has not been able to find them, despite a semester-long search of his
archives.
I all-to-well understand the sometimes delerious excitement of new
discoveries in the early rediscovery of the history of the saxophone (of
which I played a small part). I vividly remember the time when I discovered
the elusive F sopranino, (Evette Schaeffer) fully 1.5 inches smalled than my
Evette-Schaeffer Eb sopranino, and made right around the time that Ravel
wrote Bolero. Rarer than my 1930 Selmer sopranino or one handed Conn tenor
or Selmer Paris C melody with a range to low A, I had already mapped out (in
my mind) the magazine columns, national tours, recordings and conductors to
contact before I had finalized its purchase. Only then (just before signing
the dotted line) did I bother to notice that this instrument had a range only
to low B, and not to Bb. It was just an Eb sopranino with a slightly
reduced range, making it a little shorter in length. I still bought the
horn, though with a little less exuberance. It plays quite beautifully (as
do all of my Evette-Schaeffer saxophones) and came with a terrific wooden
sopranino mouthpiece. This little instrument is a humble remindar of the
relationships intermingling reality with our interests, perceptions and
expectations.
Paul Cohen
---------------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 03:10:25 -0800
From: David Flager <tubadave@jps.net>
Subject: Re: [Contra digest]
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com
From: "Mr. Josh" <themanfromutopia@hotmail.com>> Subject: Balailikas
> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 06:29:42 GMT
> Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com
> how do I make a good bass Balailika? I don't know if I spelled it right and
> I will only have the resources of a high school shop class
>
The University of Arizona has a Russian studies dept. That is where I
would start. Next I would do a search & find the "Guild Of American
Luthiers" web sight. They have had plans for one before, try contacting
that draftsperson for plans for a bass version.
---------------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 06:32:50 -0400
From: "Robert S. Howe" <arehow@vgernet.net>
Subject: Re: Bass sax FS
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comIsn't this absurd? 10,000 bucks for a lousy bass Sax? I bought mine,
from a dealer, for $450 in 1990. It could be gold-plated for another
$1000.Robert Howe
mgrogg@juno.com wrote:
>
> CONTRABASS@contrabass.com
> =========================
> *
>
> >Here's the latest from ebay: a gold-plated Conn bass sax, with high
> >F, at http://grass.ebay.com/go/101/11072133/221602988. The current
> >bid is *$10,000*, and the reserve still hasn't been met. I wonder if
> >that includes the shipping from Australia...
---------------------------------------------------------From: John Fierke <jfierke@media100.com>
Subject: $ 10,000 bass sax
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 08:47:08 -0500
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comThe gold plate alone is probably worth a couple grand ... a nice sax, too
bad I can't afford it. Even if I had it, I'd be afraid to take it to a gig
!
From: Grant Green <gdgreen@contrabass.com <mailto:gdgreen@contrabass.com>
>
Subject: Re: Bass Sax FS
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com
<mailto:contrabass@contrabass.com>
>I see this current bass sax selling for $10,000 and I know that is
a little
>above average for bass saxes as this one is a rare model. I am
needing to
>know, does anyone rember what past bass saxes have been going for
on ebay? IIt appears that the price is in US$, as the default is US$ and this auction
doesn't list any alternative currency.
Perhaps the sax is worth US$10K+. I think other basses have gone for
something in the $4-8K range. Normally, a helpful approach is to use eBay's
search function, and check out all the completed auctions to see what the
final bid was for similar items. This time, however, it came up blank.
They keep accessible records for a limited time (90 days?) - apparently
there weren't any bass sax auctions during that period.
Grant
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:24:27 -0700
From: Grant Green <gdgreen@contrabass.com>
Subject: Re: comments on some old strings
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com>Sure, it's a Conn Eb Contra, probably the most common sarrusophone around.
>Satin finnish with Gold plating on the inside of the bell. Nothing too much
>more to tell about it. It plays nice (except for the 4th line D which
>doesn't attack well) and has a huge sound. (I was lucky, it came with about
>30 actual sarrusophone reeds, about half of which work).Are you playing the 4th line D with the "D octave" key? You should
have an "extra" octave key for either left or right thumb (my contra
has it for RT, my bass and tenor have it for LT) that is used *just*
for that middle D. If you're not sure which it is, trace down the
horn from the bocal and locate the octave vents: the 1st will be the
upper octave vent, 2nd the lower octave vent, and 3rd the "D octave"
vent, which is sometimes in the same position along the bore as the
high D key (as on the Gautrot contra). My recollection is that the
Conn contra has a D octave vent similar in size to the other two
octave vents, and a larger high D tone hole similar in size to the
upper C pad.Try it, you'll like it! ;-)
Grant
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green gdgreen@contrabass.com
http://www.contrabass.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
---------------------------------------------------------From: Opusnandy@aol.com
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:36:30 EST
Subject: Re: comments on some old strings
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comIn a message dated 12/21/99 12:27:11 PM, gdgreen@contrabass.com writes:
<< Are you playing the 4th line D with the "D octave" key? You should
have an "extra" octave key for either left or right thumb (my contra
has it for RT, my bass and tenor have it for LT) that is used *just*
for that middle D. If you're not sure which it is, trace down the
horn from the bocal and locate the octave vents: the 1st will be the
upper octave vent, 2nd the lower octave vent, and 3rd the "D octave"
vent, which is sometimes in the same position along the bore as the
high D key (as on the Gautrot contra). My recollection is that the
Conn contra has a D octave vent similar in size to the other two
octave vents, and a larger high D tone hole similar in size to the
upper C pad. >>Yeah, I have the D octave key, but it doesn't help that much, it actually
works much better on the E, thanks for the advice, though.Jon Carreira
---------------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 17:09:27 -0500
From: bulshevik <bulshevik@home.com>
Subject: Re: comments on some old strings
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comWhat is a sarrusophone?
Abi Tenenbaum
[long quote deleted]
---------------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 14:57:50 -0700
From: Grant Green <gdgreen@contrabass.com>
Subject: Re: comments on some old strings
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com>What is a sarrusophone?
>
>Abi Tenenbaum
- A cross between a bassoon and a saxophone;
- An early competitor of the saxophone, developed by French competitors of Adolphe Sax, having essentially the same fingering as a saxophone but designed to be played with a double reed;
- The topic of approximately 47% of posts on the contrabass list;
- A metal, conical-bore, double-reed instrument invented in the 1850's by Gautrot and Sarrus;
- The bane of my wife ;-)
- All of the above.
The correct answer is, of course, (6). See http://www.contrabass.com/pages/sarrus.html for a bit more detail, sound clips, pictures, etc.Enjoy,
Grant
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green gdgreen@contrabass.com
http://www.contrabass.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
---------------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 15:07:33 -0700
From: Grant Green <gdgreen@contrabass.com>
Subject: Ophicleide's Progress...I just discovered that delivery of my ophicleide (an 1850, 10 key
Halary) was held up at US Customs, because it requires *FDA
clearance*. What I want to know is how it was classified:
nutritious, intoxicating, therapeutic, or medical device?In all fairness, I'm sure most people wouldn't be able to identify
one on sight, and it *is* being shipped to my office (Iconix
Pharmaceuticals) - they probably thought it was some sort of biotech
gear...Still hoping to see it before Christmas...
Grant
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green gdgreen@contrabass.com
http://www.contrabass.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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