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From: "David Neubauer" <dnmagic@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Bassoon Low Ab Extension
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 16:09:08 -0800
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comAn extension (paper, magazine or I've seen a manufactured black PVC
one) lowers the Bb to the low A (needed in one or two pieces). Most
bassoonists lip it down and don't bother with the extension. The
glove is only for a gag, I do it in my comedy act ("Neubauer &
Knight") as the punch to "Glowworm". I had to rewrite the piece so
that the last note ONLY is the low Bb.David Neubauer
www.dnmagic.com>From: "J. Daniel Ashton" <jdashton@bellsouth.net>
>I recall seeing our symphony bassoon section with rolled-up catalogs
>in their bells, which gained them a half-step, I think. I don't recall
>what piece required this.
>
>I also recall seeing, at the ending of The Pines of Rome, surgical
>gloves lifting from the bassoon section bells. I don't think the
>gloves actually gave them a lower note, however.---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 16:13:30 -0700
From: Grant Green <gdgreen@contrabass.com>
Subject: Re: Subcontrabass Saxophone impractical and ludicrous
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com> There may be a prop or even an instrument out of
>which a sound may come, which is a "subcontrabass
>saxophone" in size and pitch. But is it a real
>instrument. No, it's not. And there probably have been
>none of these saxophones ever built.True: as far as I know, no real subcontrabass sax was ever built.
> But I have to address a deeper issue here; we might
>like contrabass instruments, but that's because we're
>a bunch of insecure little men who cling tightly to
>our gigantic toys as the ultimate phallic symbol.Naw, if that were the case, we'd all drive big cars too ;-) And
while they are good for attracting attention (mainly, I think,
because most of the population don't recognize such instruments on
sight), I think most of us are here because we enjoy how they sound,
and the thrill that comes from playing them. Besides, if you want a
*phallic* display, you can't get much more graphic than electric
guitar and bass, slung as low as typical for the average rock band...> But we're not typical. We're probably the only people
>on earth who enjoy really low-pitched horns. Most
>people would not like to hear such a low pitch from a
>subcontrabass sax. Really, it wouldn't even beSo who wants to be typical? As for the rest of the population, well,
there's a reason that orchestras have string basses, contrabassoons,
and tubas. And let's not forget bass guitars, 5 and 6 string basses,
and the fact that piano goes that low. Whether its playing the
melody or not, I think *most* people prefer music that has some
"bottom" to it.Troll du jour, Adam?
Grant
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green gdgreen@contrabass.com
http://www.contrabass.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
---------------------------------------------------------From: "Terry Ford" <nole13@earthlink.net>
Subject: Subject: RE: Subcontrabass Saxophone impractical and ludicrous
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:31:35 -0600
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com
From: Adam Kent-Isaac <lokibassoon@yahoo.com>
"Most people would not like to hear such a low pitch from a
subcontrabass sax. Really, it wouldn't even be
musical, and all you'd hear would be the slaps of the
reed."Adam, if this were true, contrabassoons, paper-clip contra clarinets,
tubas, string basses wouldn't have an audience. Every instrument has a
venue, an audience and a following. It may not be an aggressive
following, but one none the less. Why do they sale so many sub-woofers?
It doesn't sound good by itself. Have you ever listened to The Nuclear
Whale Sax Orchestra? The contrabass sax would not have a big following
as a solo instrument, except by "those of us insecure, little men who
cling tightly to our gigantic toys as the ultimate phallic symbol" but
in its environment, it is truly a wonderful, powerful addition. Sorry, I
kind of missed that phallic generalization, I'll tell my wife she can't
play her paper-clip contra. I DO NOT mean to criticize your opinion, but
please, don't say "we're" and "most people". Most of my "educated"
friends enjoy the full, robust sound of a pedal tone and can appreciate
their contributions in any piece of given music. "Chordially"
Terry Ford, tuba, bari/bass sax---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 16:42:18 -0700
From: Grant Green <gdgreen@contrabass.com>
Subject: Paris update
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comSo, we returned from a week in Paris last Saturday. Spent most of
the time in the museums and restaurants (as it was my first time in
Paris), but I *did* manage to drag my wife into an antique instrument
shop, and through IRCAM. Not much in the way of contrabass, although
if all goes well a bass ophicleide will soon be heading this way
(<G!>). More details as the situation develops...Paris has an amazing number of museums worth seeing. We managed (and
here, I apologize to everyone who really knows how to spell these
names properly): the Louve, the Carnevalet, the Cluny, Versailles,
the Arc de Triomphe, the Rodin Museum, several chateaux of the l'Oire
valley whose names have completely escaped me, Reims & Epernay, the
Grevin wax museum, ... I think there were even a few more that I
can't think of at the moment. Then of course, there were the 30,000
restaurants (we didn't get to most of them - just 2 per day...) I
discovered that, after only two weeks of studying French, I could
communicate just fine with the French - as long as they spoke very
good English ;-) Amazingly, we didn't have any problems.My wife is already planning the return trip.
Grant
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green gdgreen@contrabass.com
http://www.contrabass.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
---------------------------------------------------------Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 16:52:16 -0700
From: Grant Green <gdgreen@contrabass.com>
Subject: Re: Bassoon Low Ab Extension
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comI think there is a Wagner work or two that writes the bassoon down to
low A, along with a well-known (Neilsen?) woodwind quintet. I've
never heard of bassoon being written down to Ab.One can actually obtain an extended bell joint, that allows one to
reach low A (although I think this is at the expense of low Bb - it
uses the same key). My understanding is that the low A bell often
disturbs the intonation of other notes throughout the instrument,
which is why it isn't very popular. Much like the complaints sax
players had when the low A bari was first introduced...Grant
>An extension (paper, magazine or I've seen a manufactured black PVC
>one) lowers the Bb to the low A (needed in one or two pieces). Most
>bassoonists lip it down and don't bother with the extension. The
>glove is only for a gag, I do it in my comedy act ("Neubauer &
>Knight") as the punch to "Glowworm". I had to rewrite the piece so
>that the last note ONLY is the low Bb.BTW, I seem to recall that there is a multiphonic fingering (based on
low F) that permits one to play a true low A. Apparently, with
practice one can suppress some of the more raucous partials in the
multiphonic, so that it actually sounds like an A (although still
with a distinctly odd timbre).GDG
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green gdgreen@contrabass.com
http://www.contrabass.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
---------------------------------------------------------Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 06:48:01 -0800
From: Lawrence de Martin <demartin@tesser.com>
Subject: Re: Subcontrabass Saxophone impractical and ludicrous
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com> Adam Kent-Isaac <lokibassoon@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Once an instrument gets THAT LOW,
> it's not even real anymore, just a joke or a novelty.There are admittedly problems producing musical information in the
lowest registers, from shortness of breath to room architecture. In my
opinion, however, there exists a vastness of musical expression and
emotion to be explored THAT LOW. There is good evidence that bass
hearing extends at least two octaves beyond the 32' rank. I am working
on the technical limits of bass production and reproduction so that the
population at large has more opportunity to enjoy the instruments that
plumb these depths.As for modern popular tastes, I cite the availability of really low
synthesizer notes and the extension of the most widely played and
recorded bass instrument a fourth in the last decade. Leo Fender's last
electric guitars were five-string G&L models which could be considered
contrabass at B0. I suspect these trends would go lower if there were
contrabass loudspeakers that fit into living rooms, on stages and in
budgets.I would remind the writer of the great listening popularity of a
contrabass "wind" instrument - the pipe organ - over several centuries.
The public at large may not be conscious of the musical foundation
provided by pedal tones, but musical impact is dramatically reduced if
they are not present.Further, I personally find great drama and beauty in bass melody, which
is most beautifully expressed in the rich harmonics of contrabass
woodwinds and brass winds. I want to take this opportunity to thank the
list for the inspiration I derive from the activities of contrabass
players, who master difficult, rare and expensive instruments in the
face of limited repertoire and under-appreciation in the musical world.Larry de Martin
---------------------------------------------------------Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 21:14:00 -0500
From: jim and joyce <lande@erols.com>
Subject: how low is too low?
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comStuart wrote:
>And if your calling contrabassoons and contrabass clarinets jokes,
>then I don't believe I would be alone in asking you to leave this
mailing list.I will not second that.
If I recall right, Adam is in high school. (If not, then what follows
is even more malarky that you would expect from an ecnomist practicing
psycology.) High school is a very hard place to be different in any
respect and I suspect that this is an issue for Adam. Adam is trying
out many different ideas, as much for reaction as out of zeal. My guess
is that if his band director announced that they had acquired a a
sub-contrabass sax, Adam would be first in line to play it. Adam will
take a lot of satisfaction in life from taking ideas that others discard
and making those ideas work for him. Give him credit. Many high school
kids don't try out new ideas and are not willing to take risks and be
wrong occasionally.This is easy for me to understand. I am an economist. Economists are
paid to right about 70% of the time. If we are right 100% of the time,
then we are just parroting conventional wisdom. If wre are wrong more
than half of the time, then we are not worth the bother. A 70% track
record means that we occasionally come up with better ideas than
conentional wisdom. of course, it helps to have a boss who can prune
out most of the duds.
---------------------------------------------------------
From: <Colin.HARRIS@dfee.gov.uk>
Subject: RE: Bassoon Low Ab Extension
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:12:37 -0000
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com
Grant,A Toilet roll tube works well I'm told....
Colin.
-----Original Message-----
From: Grant Green [mailto:gdgreen@contrabass.com]
*I think there is a Wagner work or two that writes the bassoon down to
low A, along with a well-known (Neilsen?) woodwind quintet. I've
never heard of bassoon being written down to Ab.One can actually obtain an extended bell joint, that allows one to
reach low A (although I think this is at the expense of low Bb - it
uses the same key). My understanding is that the low A bell often
disturbs the intonation of other notes throughout the instrument,
which is why it isn't very popular. Much like the complaints sax
players had when the low A bari was first introduced...Grant
>An extension (paper, magazine or I've seen a manufactured black PVC
>one) lowers the Bb to the low A (needed in one or two pieces). Most
>bassoonists lip it down and don't bother with the extension. The
>glove is only for a gag, I do it in my comedy act ("Neubauer &
>Knight") as the punch to "Glowworm". I had to rewrite the piece so
>that the last note ONLY is the low Bb.BTW, I seem to recall that there is a multiphonic fingering (based on
low F) that permits one to play a true low A. Apparently, with
practice one can suppress some of the more raucous partials in the
multiphonic, so that it actually sounds like an A (although still
with a distinctly odd timbre).GDG
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green gdgreen@contrabass.com
http://www.contrabass.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
----------------------
end contrabass list
---------------------------------------------------------From: LeliaLoban@aol.com
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:55:01 EST
Subject: Re: Subcontrabass Saxophone impractical and ludicrous
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comAdam Kent-Isaac wrote,
>FOOD FOR THOUGHT:>Food for trolls....
>But I have to address a deeper issue here; we might like contrabass
instruments, but that's because we're a bunch of insecure little men who
cling tightly to our gigantic toys as the ultimate phallic symbol.>Who's WE? (she grumps, thinking that the first guy who writes "penis envy" is
gonna get the Curse of the Perpetual Short Octave).>And if a note did come out, it would sound fairly nasty. People like melodic
instruments (flute, oboe, alto sax, clarinet, cello, etc.) and the players of
these instruments get rich and famous because people love their sound. >They DO? Hey, I play clarinet and alto sax. Where's my money?
>Don't get me wrong, I LOVE contrabass instruments. But as William Shatner
said, "Get a Life.">Playing Captain Kirk sure did make that man a philosopher.
> Our instruments give us power like guns, or tanks, or computers give other
little men power!!!>Yeah, ain't it the truth. Some sorry-ass burglar comes sneaking in here,
I'll take aim with my trusty1926 Bass Magnum Sax and blow him away with a
blast of double-tongued low B-flats. That oughta nail his sorry hide to the
wall damn quick. He'll regret he ever came rooting around in here, by gum!Did you all see that story in the news Sunday about the stark-naked man who
burst into a church in England and started carving people up with a Samurai
sword? It seems an off-duty cop in the choir finally subdued the madman by
whanging him over the head with an organ pipe. Now there's a case where some
little piccolo pipe definitely wouldn't be the right tool for the job -- but
a contrabass wouldn't have made a good choice either, probably, because
hoisting and swinging a 32-footer would prove a bit much for the doughtiest
bobby.... Here are links to some of the wire stories:http://www.spokane.net/news-story-body.asp?Date=112999&ID=s713340&cat=
http://deseretnews.com/dn/print/1,1442,145007216,00.html?
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/dynamic/news/story.html?in_review_id=232510&in_review_text_id=181393
http://news.excite.com/news/r/991128/16/international-britain-church?printstory=1
;-)
Lelia
(re-loading her Bass Magnum)
---------------------------------------------------------From: Heliconman@aol.com
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:20:34 EST
Subject: Re: Subcontrabass Saxophone impractical and ludicrous
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comIn a message dated 11/28/1999 9:21:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,
lokibassoon@yahoo.com writes:<<
FOOD FOR THOUGHT:There may be a prop or even an instrument out of
which a sound may come, which is a "subcontrabass
saxophone" in size and pitch. But is it a real
instrument. No, it's not. And there probably have been
none of these saxophones ever built.
But I have to address a deeper issue here; we might
like contrabass instruments, but that's because we're
a bunch of insecure little men who cling tightly to
our gigantic toys as the ultimate phallic symbol.
But we're not typical. We're probably the only people
on earth who enjoy really low-pitched horns. Most
people would not like to hear such a low pitch from a
subcontrabass sax. Really, it wouldn't even be
musical, and all you'd hear would be the slaps of the
reed. And if a note did come out, it would sound
fairly nasty. People like melodic instruments (flute,
oboe, alto sax, clarinet, cello, etc.) and the players
of these instruments get rich and famous because
people love their sound. Few people would want to
invest the funds and time to build such a large
saxophone.
An instrument like that is all looks anyway. It might
be fun to look at and it might attract attention, but
that's really it; it's just a sight gag. People like
real instruments. Once an instrument gets THAT LOW,
it's not even real anymore, just a joke or a novelty.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE contrabass instruments.
But as William Shatner said, "Get a Life." Our
instruments give us power like guns, or tanks, or
computers give other little men power!!!-Adam
___ >>Adam, Adam, Adam......
Have you ever walked into a village full of cannibals and started talking
about what a delicious meal you would make for them? Nice escape!
I'm beginning to think that this is the kind of game you enjoy! I hope you
took lessons from Harry Houdini or David Copperfield! Your abilty to escape
may come in VERY HANDY!
My next line could be something about a disappearing act, but I won't flame
bait YOU! You'd just laugh at me. I'd be a fool to try to out do a Master!
Ya got a sick sense of humor. Can be fun for the fish, too if they don't fall
victim to it!Just don't forget to yell "JUST KIDDING!!!!!" just before the cannibals put
you in the kettle to boil ya! Hope their sense of humor is stronger than
their sense of hunger!By the way, you've got something on the bottom of your shoe. Watch where you
step! That stuff will eat right through your sole!P.S. How long have you plated the piccolo???? ;}
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 18:21:44 +0000 (GMT)
From: tomfox@cloudcuckooland.co.uk
Subject: Re: Subcontrabass Saxophone impractical and ludicrous
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comIf a subcontrabass saxophone did exist, it still wouldn't go as low as a tuba does.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
yourname@0-0-7.co.uk or yourname@shaken-not-stirred.co.uk
The domain's Bond, James Bond - only from www.funmail.co.uk
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:30:36 -0800
From: "Timothy J. Tikker" <timjt@awod.com>
Subject: [Fwd: from contrabass-l]
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comDr H wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Nov 1999, Timothy J. Tikker wrote:
>
> }R> Just out of curiosity, how hard would it be to make an Alternate
> }R> bell for bassoon extending one whole step lower?
>
> Seems like you could do it with some 3" ABS plastic drain pipe and
> a bunch of cork or rubber sheeting.
>
> Dr H
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