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From: <Colin.HARRIS@dfee.gov.uk>
Subject: RE: How low can we go - long
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 09:17:17 +0100
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comThat's that case with an oboe, where the first harmonic is actually stronger
than the fundamental.As far as I know, pitch definition occurs in a harmonic structure. Pure
tones below 100Hz are hard to pin down. I have seen studies of reeds
which show the fundamental is actually suppressed by the natural
instrument acoustics, presumably to get more power to the harmonics. The
harmonic structure provides the perception of the pitch at the suppressed
fundamental, through a psychoacoustic process called "fundamental
reconstruction".---------------------------------------------------------
From: <Colin.HARRIS@dfee.gov.uk>
Subject: RE: Low organ notes and brass pedals
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 09:28:04 +0100
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comMy tuba is an Eb, with a fundamental tone of Eb five lines below the stave.
However, with all my tubing in place i.e. all 4 valves down, I get
fundamental of E (almost an octave below that).It is real note, quite playable, but right on the edge of 'effectiveness'.
On the same principal, the fundamental of a 4 valve BBb contrass tuba is B a
fourth below that i.e. the B below the lowest B on a piano.
I have never got that yet, but acoustically it should be perfectly sound.As pointed out before, this gets complex when you talk about more than 4
valves on tubas, but the principal is the same.Does anyone have a www address for a list of pitch frequencies, or a 'ready
reckoner' for one?Colin.
>I can
>almost reach down there on my Bass Trombone, and there are plenty of
>Tubists who can go further than me (not to mention Trombonists!).I want to understand this. The lowest open note on a standard tenor
trombone is a Bb in the 16' octave; when you descend from this note using
the slide, you get the lowest possible real note--the fundamental pitch of
the tube--which is an E in the 16' octave, provided you don't have triggers.The lowest open note on a standard concert tuba is a Bb in the 32' octave;
when you descend from this note using the valves, you get the C in the 32'
octave (using all 4 valves), which is 16 Hz. Anything you could produce
below that would be a false tone and couldn't possibly have fundamental
resonance, as the tube wouldn't support the fundamental of anything lower.
I've never heard a tuba player that was able to play anything below 32' E.
I'm just not understanding how all of y'all are saying that you can play
these massive notes that are lower than the lowest fundamental your
instruments will allow!?!?!?
I have heard a 32' bombarde on an organ such that the pipes are conical as
they should be, but they're half-length, so those notes are actually false
tones, and they sound very bad. Those pipes aren't supporting any
fundamental; they're simply acting as amplifiers for the higher harmonics ofthe vibrating reeds, and the sound is ugly.
Like I say, if you want to hear what the lowest real note on any brass
instrument is, take something with a reed that will fit onto the instrument,whether it be a bari sax mouthpiece or simply a straw with a double reed cut
in the end, depress all valves (or extend the slide all the way out) and
blow! The sound is so much louder, too, than the lips can produce, though Idon't know why.
-Gregg_____________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
----------------------
end contrabass list
---------------------------------------------------------From: <Colin.HARRIS@dfee.gov.uk>
Subject: RE: 64' organ stops????
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 09:33:35 +0100
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comLincoln cathedral in England. Also there are some in Liverpool Cathedral.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gregg Bailey [mailto:greggbailey@hotmail.com]
Sent: 17 October 1999 18:15
To: contrabass@contrabass.com
Subject: 64' organ stops????Colin,
>I have heard that the 64 foot organ stops at Lincoln Cathedral (I think)
>had
>to be turned off, as there were worries about the integrity of the building
>when in use!What all do you know about this? Is that 64' a true stop? Is it reed or
flue? If it is in fact a true 64', then I'm wondering what other unknown
real 64's there are in the world. The only ones I have learned of are the
64' Diaphone at Atlantic City Convention Hall and the 64' Contra Trombone inthe Sydney Town Hall in Australia.
Where is Lincoln Cathedral?
-Gregg______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
----------------------
end contrabass list
---------------------------------------------------------From: <Colin.HARRIS@dfee.gov.uk>
Subject: RE: Low organ notes and brass pedals - Tom
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 09:50:31 +0100
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comTom,
These double-pedals sound very false on even the widest bored trombones.
They do not have any musical value, and I don't count them as 'true' notes.
It's a bit akin to the discussion about resultant stops on an organ -
technically they might be there, but they are not quite the 'real thing'.-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Izzo [mailto:jeanvaljean@ntsource.com]
Sent: 18 October 1999 00:14
To: contrabass@contrabass.com
Subject: Re: Low organ notes and brass pedalsBecause of the way a Trombone is wrapped (bent), we can use the metal of the
instrument to vibrate against itself & produce a series of "double pedal"
tones at 1 position lower than the true fundamental. So on a Tenor in Bb, I
can play a BBBb in 2nd position. That's 6 lines below Bass clef. (1/2 step
above the lowest note on a piano), by extension then, we can carry it out to
F in 7th (8 lines below Bass clef). Add the triggers and.....................
---------------------------------------------------------From: "Chip Owen" <cowen@whitleynet.org>
Subject: Guiness & Low Pitched Instruments
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 06:31:07 -0500
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comBe careful when using the Guinness Book of World Records as a reference
source. It exists to support the needs of the curious who enjoy reading it
and the self gratification of those who manage to get into it. It is much
easier to get an accurate timing of a sporting event than to do an accurate
job of historical research.There were many low pitched instruments that were made in the 19th century
in the hopes of finding one that satisfied everyone's needs. The naming of
these various instruments is a major source of confusion. The fact that
there may have been an instrument made call the Subcontrabassoon doesn't
mean that it was a low pitched contrabassoon. It wasn't.Chip Owen
Columbia City, IN
cowen@whitleynet.org
> From: "Gregg Bailey" <greggbailey@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Subcontrabassoon, Octocontrabass clari
> Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 12:40:00 CDT
> Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com
> Regarding the octocontra clarinets,
>
> >Both instruments descended to their written low C sounding EEb and BBBb
> >respectively.
>
> Then why does the Guinness Book of World Records say this: "...the
> subcontrabass clarinet, which can reach C (subscript 11) or 16.4
> cycles/sec."
> I took that to mean only a low D extension.
>
> Also, I thought that we had agreed that a true Sub-Contrabassoon had in
> fact been constructed, or at least that it MIGHT'VE been. After all, the
> Guinness states: "In 1873 a sub-double bassoon able to reach B (subscript
> 111) (plus or minus) or 14.6 cycles/sec was constructed..."
>
> There is one person on this list who had reasonable arguments to support
> the possibility of the subcontrabassoon. I can't remember who it is, but he
> likes to say "Contrafag" alot! So, who is it?!?!? Crawl back out and
> convince us that there WAS a subcontrabassoon!
> -Gregg
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 16:14:26 +0100 (BST)
From: Dafydd y garreg wen <mavnw@csv.warwick.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Low organ notes and brass pedals
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com
On Sun, 17 Oct 1999, Gregg Bailey wrote:
>
> >I can
> >almost reach down there on my Bass Trombone, and there are plenty of
> >Tubists who can go further than me (not to mention Trombonists!).
>
> I want to understand this. The lowest open note on a standard tenor
> trombone is a Bb in the 16' octave; when you descend from this note using
> the slide, you get the lowest possible real note--the fundamental pitch of
> the tube--which is an E in the 16' octave, provided you don't have triggers.Which I do; these can take you down to 32' Bb on my instrument -
specifications vary. Below this, you have to fake notes by putting the
slide as for an octave, sticking your mouth right down into the mouthpiece
and giving it some air. This does work, although the actual notes produced
are pretty rancid. Using this method I can reach down to about 22 Hz on a
good day (48' F). I would expect the same principles to work on a tuba -
they certainly work on a Euphonium. I'm not sure what these tones are,
though; there's definitely a willingness to resonate an octave lower that
won't work so well a ninth lower, say, and definitely doesn't like a
seventh. Tom Izzo was saying a while ago that it was possible to produce
an octave below this. (I'm working on it, Tom!)> The lowest open note on a standard concert tuba is a Bb in the 32' octave;
> when you descend from this note using the valves, you get the C in the 32'
> octave (using all 4 valves), which is 16 Hz. Anything you could produce
> below that would be a false tone and couldn't possibly have fundamental
> resonance, as the tube wouldn't support the fundamental of anything lower.
> I've never heard a tuba player that was able to play anything below 32' E.There's a BBb bass player in our band who claims to be able to produce
down to the Db below that, but they sound a bit ropey below about F. (And
we're just enthusiastic amateurs - I expect there are professional players
who can do better).Dave Taylor
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 16:28:07 +0100 (BST)
From: Dafydd y garreg wen <mavnw@csv.warwick.ac.uk>
Subject: RE: 64' organ stops????
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com
On Mon, 18 Oct 1999 Colin.HARRIS@dfee.gov.uk wrote:> Lincoln cathedral in England. Also there are some in Liverpool Cathedral.
I was told that Coventry Cathedral has some too. There's a tapestry 72
feet high hanging at the back, so there's definitely space (even though
there'd be some funny effects with it bouncing off the ceiling). The space
inside is about as long as a football pitch, so there's plenty of room to
resonate. It was also built quite recently, in the 60s after the
original St. Michael's was bombed in the war.Dave Taylor
---------------------------------------------------------
From: <Colin.HARRIS@dfee.gov.uk>
Subject: French Horn
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 16:36:27 +0100
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comHow long is a french horn's tube? Is it about 11 foot? Isn't that the same
as a F tuba? Help!Colin Harris
---------------------------------------------------------Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 16:39:57 +0100 (BST)
From: Dafydd y garreg wen <mavnw@csv.warwick.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: French Horn
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com
On Mon, 18 Oct 1999 Colin.HARRIS@dfee.gov.uk wrote:> How long is a french horn's tube? Is it about 11 foot? Isn't that the same
> as a F tuba? Help!Yep. They just play very high; that's why the sound is so constipated :p
Dave Taylor
>
> Colin Harris
> ----------------------
> end contrabass list
>
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 12:57:37 -0700
From: Grant Green <gdgreen@contrabass.com>
Subject: Re: Contrabass Sarrusophone in concert!
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com>I recall reading the sarrusophone part on tuba.
>Something about long running fours against
>triplets elsewhere. Good stuff.
>
>OscarThere *is* a passage or two of that: on the CBSaur part, it starts on
a (written) high D above the staff. There are also a few spots where
the CBSaur has the main theme, although most of the time it has just
the bass pizzicato eighth notes.Grant
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green gdgreen@contrabass.com
http://www.contrabass.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
---------------------------------------------------------Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 13:05:53 -0700
From: Grant Green <gdgreen@contrabass.com>
Subject: Re: 7-foot tuba????
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com>>a monster tuba seven foot high,
>
> What's the story on this tuba?? I mean, is it a BBBb a full
>octave below the standard tuba? Is it a new one, or is it Sousa's
>or Harvards??? What are the lowest notes that the music has it
>play? Does it frequently play 32' notes? Is it easy to pick out in
>the recording?I assume its either one of the BBBb or EEEb monsters that are already
known, and was somehow dragooned for this concert (along with the
heckelphone and contrabass serpent, two contrabass clarinets, two
contrabassoons, none of which were exactly widespread at the time of
the concert). The tuba looks relatively new in the picture, but keep
in mind that the concert at which this picture must have been taken
was in 1956.As to the notes, I'll have to listen to it a few more times.
> How can a person's lips effectively play an instrument that
>large with a mouthpiece that large??How large? The rule of thumb for bore diameter is that you increase
the cross-sectional area of the bore by a factor of two each time you
descend an octave, which works out to be a factor 1.4 in the
diameter. So, the bore need only be 40% larger than the tuba on
which it was based, which may have been relatively narrow by modern
standards. And, of course, the mouthpiece doesn't necessarily scale
the same way, or the same amount.Then again, maybe its just a 12/4 monster BBb tuba... ;-)
Grant
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green gdgreen@contrabass.com
http://www.contrabass.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
---------------------------------------------------------Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 13:08:40 -0700
From: Grant Green <gdgreen@contrabass.com>
Subject: RE: How low can we go
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com>That's that case with an oboe, where the first harmonic is actually stronger
>than the fundamental.Also the case with the string bass, which has a body that isn't
really large enough for the frequencies it plays. The first harmonic
is quite a bit stronger than the fundamental.Also explains how little radio/tape deck speakers manage to "produce"
frequencies having a wavelength many times the size of their tiny
speakers...Grant
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green gdgreen@contrabass.com
http://www.contrabass.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
---------------------------------------------------------Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 13:13:40 -0700
From: Grant Green <gdgreen@contrabass.com>
Subject: Hoffnung cartoons
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comAlong with the Hoffnung CDs, I picked up several of the Hoffnung
cartoon books. One of them is full of pictures of instruments and
players (I've forgotten the title, unfortunately). Included in the
cartoons is one of a woman practicing sarrusophone in bed, to her
husband's evident misery, and another of a cimbasso (in the common,
modern T format) transformed into a floor lamp...Grant
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green gdgreen@contrabass.com
http://www.contrabass.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
---------------------------------------------------------Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 13:16:45 -0700
From: Grant Green <gdgreen@contrabass.com>
Subject: Re: French Horn
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com>How long is a french horn's tube? Is it about 11 foot? Isn't that the same
>as a F tuba? Help!Yes, French horn and F tuba are both in 12 foot F. The horn's narrow
bore is optimized for playing in the upper register, but horn music
does extend well into (and below) the bass clef.Grant
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green gdgreen@contrabass.com
http://www.contrabass.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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