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Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 23:03:46 EDT
Subject: Re: Contralto clarinet for sale

In a message dated 10/14/99 3:24:16 PM, writes:

<< I plan to post the horn in the Seattle paper sometime in early November.
I will ask $1200 (and will take $1,000). >>

Grant & Phillip-

I recently purchased a Selmer Bundy EEb Contra Alto on E-Bay.  It was fairly
described and is in good condition.  There was at least one other Selmer
plastic EEb on sale at approximately the same time.  I expect the Selmers are
roughly equivalent to the Vito, and worth about the same.

As far as I can tell, EEb Contras just don't attract much attention compared
to the BBb, or else I'm wrong about the comparable value of Bundy and Vito.
Both of the Selmers went for under $1000.  I was the only bidder at $950,
although there were other (lower) bidders for a previous listing.  As I
recall, the other Selmer went for around $922, and claimed to be only a few
weeks old.

In the same timeframe, there were also BBb Vitos auctioned with somewhat
higher bids than what Phillip paid for his EEb.  Unless the Vito has some
value I'm not aware of, you will be quite lucky to recover the entire investment!

Fred McKenzie
Community Bands

Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 14:39:39 EDT
Subject: Re.: How low can we go - long

Lawrence de Martin wrote,
>I have been lurking on the list without posting since I have never played a
wind instrument; but I have been researching bass hearing so I would like to
give my observations on this topic.  Long dissertation follows, feel free to

Glad you did decide to de-lurk!  Thank you very much for the "long
dissertation," which fascinated me.  In previous discussions on this list
about the possible lower limits of human hearing, I think we reached a
general consensus that "conventional wisdom" must be wrong, since a number of
us are convinced we can hear the foundation tone of 64' pitch (CCCCC =
nominally 8 Hz), so it's nice to see corroboration!  Can you tell us more
about why you're interested in the human ability to hear sub-bass?

It sounds as though your research indicates that we on this list aren't as
specially trained (or dare I say as freakish...?) as some of us have assumed.
 Can the general population hear 8 Hz. and below?  How much below 5 Hz do
your studies indicate the people with the most acute hearing can perceive?
What about the limit of pitch identification?  Can you point us toward some
published studies with more detail that might be accessible to people (like
me!) who are not doctors or engineers?

I'm especially interested in these comments:

>The limit to bass instruments is not hearing.  There are power limits to
bass production and architectural limits to bass expression. > [snip] >You
also need a room with dimensions over 55 feet (or a lot of acoustical holes
in the walls) to give expression to the lowest octaves.  >

Could you go into a bit more detail about what sort of building makes these
sounds audible?  For instance, 55 feet in what sense?  Is 55 ft. the total
square footage of the room, or the height from floor to ceiling, or the depth
from front to back?  Do such sounds need a building or are they audible
outdoors?  What are "acoustical holes"?  I've got my Yamaha 811 digital
keyboard positioned at the top edge of an open stairwell with a
sharply-sloped ceiling above the instrument and the stairwell.  I've been
saying that the stairwell works as a sound box.  With the Clavinova placed
away from the stairs and against a typical "piano wall," the internal
speakers (which faced the room, not the wall) were inadequate.  With the
Clavinova moved against the stairwell railing, the Clavinova's internal
speakers are more than adequate and I can crank the volume above the pain
threshhold.  Does that mean the stairwell functions as an acoustical hole?

If the explanation would be too long and complicated to put on the list, can
you point me to a reference source where I could read more?


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