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Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 19:19:42 -0400
From: "farfl's house" <farfl@idirect.ca>
Subject: Re: [Contra digest]
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comI don't know if my last message about people "blowing their own horns" and private messages came through
or not, but please, let's turn this list back to the topic at hand. This isn't a chat room. Private,
off-list messages to other members are encouraged, too.
Appreciatively,
StevenKewlsax19@aol.com wrote:
>Hi Matt, I play the sax too...I play the soprano sax, but I do like to play
> on the larger instruments, such as the bari and bass. I do notice that the
> larger members of the sax family are not quite as agile as the smaller
> members, such as the soprano and sopranino.---------------------------------------------------------
From: "Gregg Bailey" <greggbailey@hotmail.com>
Subject: Low saxes, etc.
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 18:25:29 CDT
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com
Adam,>I wish they
>would build baritone saxes with extended ranges even beyond the lower A, like
>even to a G.Me, too! This would be the fingering (and pitch) equivalent of
the bass clarinet's low C. Actually, I've found the clarinet's
fingering to be the easiest of all woodwinds, so I don't understand why
they don't just make all woodwinds with clarinet keywork, omitting the
throat keys. Also, List, why is the written pitch for clarinets a
fifth lower than what it should be? The fingering for the saxophone's
and flute's C major scale in the lowest octave is the same as the
clarinet's F major scale in the lowest octave.>have you ever seen a picture of a subcontrabass
>saxophone? This horn was supposedly in BBb an octave lower than the bass,
>which means its lowest note is a half step below the piano's lowest note.There is a "Contrabass" saxophone, which would normally mean "an
octave below the bass" saxophone. However, the Contrabass saxophone is
an octave below the Bari. There has been a Subcontrabass saxophone
built that is TWO octaves below the bari! When I went to Matt H.'s
homepage, it had a link to a picture of the Subcontrabass sax; it must
be 16' tall. I don't know if it has low A, where it is, or anything,
but the picture seemed to show other people holding down the keys.
Apparently it wasn't constructed with the intent of actually being
played as a real instrument. Does anybody know more than I about it?
>That means this horn goes lower than even the contrabassoon.There is also a Subcontrabass clarinet and an Octobass Viol that
have the same range as the Subcontrabass sax, as well as an alleged
Subcontrabassoon.
Why don't more people play the pipe organ????? One has total
control of everything, and the low notes are the best of any mouth-
blown wind instrument.
Who all on this list is an organist? I know that Lelia Loban and
Timothy Tikker are.
_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
---------------------------------------------------------Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 19:38:29 -0400
From: RJ Carpenter <emerald1@megsinet.net>
Subject: RE: Low saxes, etc.
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com>Also, List, why is the written pitch for clarinets >a
>fifth lower than what it should be? The fingering >for the saxophone's
>and flute's C major scale in the lowest octave is >the same as the
>clarinet's F major scale in the lowest octave.This is because the Clarinet is really two different instruments. The
register key converts the horn from an Eb instrument (in the lower register)
to a Bb instrument in the upper; just like a Double Horns 4th rotary valve
changes the pitch of the instrument. Also like the double horn; composers
and players alike found it easier (sensibly so...) to write for both keys of
the instrument in the same key... This becomes the instrument dominant key;
in the case of the clarinet Bb; or with the Horn... typically F.
>here is a "Contrabass" saxophone, which would >normally mean "an
>octave below the bass" saxophone. However, the >Contrabass saxophone is
>an octave below the Bari. There has been a >Subcontrabass saxophone
>built that is TWO octaves below the bari! When I >went to Matt H.'s
>homepage, it had a link to a picture of the >Subcontrabass sax; it must
>be 16' tall. I don't know if it has low A, where >it is, or anything,
>but the picture seemed to show other people >holding down the keys.
>Apparently it wasn't constructed with the intent >of actually being
>played as a real instrument. Does anybody know >more than I about it?
This Saxophone Bourdon was constructed simply as a prop for a television
show. Apparently the instrument did play; though so unreliably and so badly
out of tune that it was virtually useless. I do not know what happened to
this horn; I assume it was destroyed or sold for scrap... though it's
possible that it resides in a private collection somewhere.
>There is also a Subcontrabass clarinet and an >Octobass Viol that
>have the same range as the Subcontrabass sax, as >well as an alleged
>Subcontrabassoon.
The Sub-Contrabassoon is most likely a myth that began as a
Misunderstanding... for complete details, I'm sure you can find articles by
Mr. Francis Firth in the contra Archives.
Hope I Was Helpful,
Tristan Kayne Carpenter
---------------------------------------------------------
From: NINEWINDS@aol.com
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 20:06:38 EDT
Subject: Re: Low saxes, etc.
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comVery fine Baritone saxophone players like Howard Johnson lip down to the g.
The Ab (g#) and g are on the horn you just have practise hearing it.Vinny
---------------------------------------------------------From: CoolStu67@aol.com
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 20:33:25 EDT
Subject: Re: Low saxes, etc.
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com
<<
Me, too! This would be the fingering (and pitch) equivalent of
the bass clarinet's low C.
>>
Not to mention looking stupid and deadening the overall instrument, there
would be no point. Once you get to low Bb (as you wish), why not just make
the sax in a lower key (meaning forget a low G bari and get a low Bb bass).
The bass clarinet can get awhile with the low C as being useful since there
is such a difference in pitch until the next size, the Eb contralto.<<
Actually, I've found the clarinet's
fingering to be the easiest of all woodwinds, so I don't understand why
they don't just make all woodwinds with clarinet keywork, omitting the
throat keys.
>>
You must be a Spartan or actually enjoy difficulty! The saxophone is much
easier than the clarinet--- all fingerings are the same note, and you jump
octaves by hitting a single key, compared to a clarinet--- the same fingering
is two different notes, and you jump octaves by hitting a key, completely
changing your embouchure, and overcoming the nasty break. Plus, you couldn't
omit the throat keys since the clarinet cyndrical tubes jump the 13th, so you
wouldn't have any notes between G and B. Why do you think the saxophone is
conical? (by the way, I play bass clarinet daily and am quite familiar with
it; I'm not talking from a once a month doubler's point of view)<<
Also, List, why is the written pitch for clarinets a
fifth lower than what it should be? The fingering for the saxophone's
and flute's C major scale in the lowest octave is the same as the
clarinet's F major scale in the lowest octave.
>>
It's written how it's supposed to be, because it is called a clarinet in the
key of Bb. Not all Bohem system instruments are going to be the same, they
have to adapt to the specific instrument.<<
There is a "Contrabass" saxophone, which would normally mean "an
octave below the bass" saxophone. However, the Contrabass saxophone is
an octave below the Bari.
>>
Contra doesn't have to mean a full octave. Think contralto with vocal
singers--- it just means a lower-than-normal alto. You are thinking of the
clarinet, which makes perfect since, but using that method on saxophone, the
alto sax would become the soprano, the tenor alto, bari would be bass, bass
would be contralto (an octave below the new alto) and the contrabass would
still remain the same. Keeping the saxophone system, if you renamed the
octocontrabass sax to contrabass, the contrabass would have to change to
contralto. But a two full octave difference between alto and contralto is not
justified.<<
as well as an alleged Subcontrabassoon.
>>
I believe that topic has been discussed a few months back, and for quite a
while.<<
Why don't more people play the pipe organ????? One has total
control of everything, and the low notes are the best of any mouth-
blown wind instrument.
>>
Difficulty, expense, size, timbre...Stuart
-Sax (Soprano/Alto)
-Clarinet (Eb/Bb/Bass/Contras)
---------------------------------------------------------Subject: Re: Low saxes, etc.
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 99 20:34:08 -0700
From: Richard Fenno <rfenno@earthlink.net>
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com2 observations here:
My brand new and totally wonderful Unison baritone saxophone is about the
first low A bari I've played that doesn't have a lot of crappy
idiosyncratic intonation problems caused by the addition of the A. I've
owned several horns, the main 3 brands (Selmer, Yanigasawa, Yamaha). All
were very playable, with lovely sound. But the frustrations were subtle
and constant. All worked very well when recording a piece in F or C, but
when it comes time for a big fat low Db concert, you have to give it a
LOT of compensation to get the note "unfuzz." And the open C# (middle
register) was always a struggle.I also owned a Selmer to low Bb and found the intonation to be far better
and the "scooching" required far less. The new horn (which has a low A
*and* a high F#) is killer, though on some passages a "full fingered" C#
with the octave key in lieu of open C# is the better part of valor,
especially if you're recording with (ah-HEM) guitar players. (Ask me how
much I paid for the Unison off-list if you want to think that things are,
in fact, getting better.)I played a beautiful Mazeo model Selmer bass clarinet with a C in
college, and there were no such intonation problems with that instrument,
ever. I think you could have added a couple more half steps to that
clarinet without a problem. Not so, I believe, the saxophone. The
clarinet being "two instruments" I could tentatively accept as the reason.Adding another half step to the saxophone, however, which started maybe
in the late 1940s or earlier on a very small scale, has taken a very long
time to straighten out. Anybody who's ever had the mixed pleasure of
playing a Selmer low a alto will bear witness to the same problems an
octave above.I'm not saying it's impossible to add a low note or 2 to the horn, but it
requires an active, physical style of playing. I'm not even complaining
about that, because it's how I make my living. But it's the facts.Secondly, my bari goes to a concert C. My (ca. 1915 Conn) bass sax goes
to an Ab: four half steps are all that separate these instruments.
HOWEVER, while I can fill an average sized room with the lower register
of my baritone, my bass sax can rumble walls and remove paintings not
nailed down. It's a different sort of horn with a different set of tonal
characteristics. Despite there being just a major third between them,
they are worlds apart, as several recording engineers in this town found
out the hard way by presetting my levels to "baritone" presets when I was
playing bass.I'd rather be playing the bass sax in those low registers if what's
required is a "tuba-like" presence. It's built for those low notes. It's
fatter, rounder, louder, and generally more appropriate.That's my cinco centavos.
RF
Richard Fenno * Austin, Texas
Saxophones, Woodwinds, Arranging, Music Prep
Author of Claris Home Page 3 for Windows & Macintosh, a Visual QuickStart Guide---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 00:08:18 -0400
From: Jim Katz <JimKatz@JohnAbbott.qc.ca>
Subject: ..double reeds fatigue me...
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com>How do you make your embochure to play a double
>reed. I've played single reeds all my life, but double reeds fatigue me.I
>figure I am doing something wrong or I just need practice.Yep, sounds like double reeds to me. Fatigue is in the nature of the beast
to some extent. After finding the best balance of reed and embrochure, the
only thing to do is practice. These specific muscles gain strength and
endurance the same way others do.Jim Katz
a distant second bassoon
I Medici di McGill
Physician Orchestra
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 12:09:41 -0500
From: John Howell <John.Howell@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: [Contra digest]
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.com>From: Littleoboe@aol.com
>I just recently learned that I will be playeing bass oboe or heckelphone for
>a band performance. Can anyone give me tips on how to play these
>instruments? I currently play oboe...I asked the principle oboist in our orchestra about this. She's played
both, when she was at Interlachen. According to her the bass oboe is much
easier to play because it responds more like an oboe or English horn and
because it uses standard oboe keywork and fingerings. Apparently the
Heckelphone uses some other key system and responds somewhat differently
because of a larger bore. I'm sure you could learn to play either, since
she did.John
John & Susie Howell (mailto:John.Howell@vt.edu)
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
---------------------------------------------------------
From: SaxKicker@aol.com
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 13:01:44 EDT
Subject: Re: [Contra digest]
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comhey whats wrong with them talking about low saxes steven? I enjoyed reading
the Emails!Matt (Bari sax player)
---------------------------------------------------------From: SaxKicker@aol.com
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 13:04:33 EDT
Subject: Re: Low saxes, etc.
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comHey can anyone tell me on which page this Sub-contrabass sax is?
Matt
---------------------------------------------------------From: "Aaron Rabushka" <arabushk@cowtown.net>
Subject: Re: [Contra digest]
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 12:55:11 -0500
Reply-To: contrabass@contrabass.comIt's interesting that in Strauss's "Alpine Symphony" (IIRC) the English horn
player plays the English horn the whole time whereas the Heckelphone player
doubles on a regular oboe. Have any of the players on this list ever played
any of the symphonies by Harvergal Brian that call for unusual "oversized"
wind instruments?Aaron J. Rabushka
arabushk@cowtown.net
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