Contrabass Digest
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1998-11-07

 
list                           Sat, 7 Nov 1998            Volume 1 : Number 22

In this issue:
 

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Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 09:38:24 -0800
From: "Johnson, David L" <David.Johnson7@PSS.Boeing.com>
To: "'list@contrabass.com'" <list@contrabass.com>
Subject: Bass Sax Finishes, Hard Cases,E-Bay

  Thank you Frank Diaz, and Richard Fenno for your input, It will help me in
figuring out what type of finish I have on my 1915 Conn.  When I got it I
took it to a knowledgabe Bass Sax player and Instrument repairman to have it
checked out to be sure it wasn't a stripped silver or nickle horn turned to
brass.  This would be a wise move for any novice such as I to do when
considering buying a vintage sax.  Sound and playability are more important
than looks. The old fashioned cupped brass finger pads are really nice.
  (Rich Fenno - arn't you the founder of the mythical "International Bass
Saxophone Registry" - sounded like an intersting concept.)
  There was a Buescher Bass Sax on E-bay recently.  I was the only bidder at
$3500 but the deal fell thru when the seller first agreed to using TradeSafe
escrow service then later backed out.  Better to lose an escrow fee then a
large sum of money and be stuck with a potentialy butchered horn.
  Related Circumstances led me to buying another Bass Sax, a Couf from the
'80s, nice horn but it needs some damage repaired.  It is an example of why
you should use a hard case instead of a gig pack. Also a good idea to keep
them in their case when not in use, heard of a bass sax that got knocked
over and damaged in an earthquake.
  A site of interest for Bass Sax usage is the Uptown Lowdown Jazz Band:
http://www.best.com/~kquick/uptown.html/
  Anyone interested in a 20's Conn Bass sax for sale might try contacting
Paul at momaphet@yahoo.com - he has a friend with one for sale.
 

                                             David L Johnson
                                              ph 206-662-1769  ms 14-MF

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:21:07 -0800
From: Grant Green <gdgreen@contrabass.com>
To: list@contrabass.com
Subject: Helicon Alert!

If anyone is in the market for a Besson Eb helicon, there's one up for auction at ebay,
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=40344787.  Opening
bid is $300, and there appears to be a reserve...

Someone at BrookMays has a "bass bugle" in the shape of a 3 valve Eb
helicon, see http://brookmays.com/classifieds/BASSBUGLEUNUSUALSHAPE.html.
I wonder why he thinks its a bugle?  He's asking $400 plus shipping.

There's also a 1917 Holton BBb tuba (3 valve, upright) at
http://brookmays.com/classifieds/BBbTuba.html for $1700.

Enjoy!

Grant

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green            gdgreen@contrabass.com
                    http://www.contrabass.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 16:16:34 EST
From: LeliaLoban@aol.com
To: list@contrabass.com
Subject: Vintage metal finishes

Jim Lande <lande@erols.com> asked,
>>...I was the silly person who bought the pre-wwII Kohlert brass bass
clarinet.... A lot of the horn has a red oxide patina.  Should I work at
cleaning this stuff off? polishing whole horn? relacquering? I remember
hearing about 'red rot' and wonder if I should feed the horn antibiotics or
just vitamine C?  Etc.>>

What a nifty thing to own!  In addition to antibiotics and vitamins, that horn
probably needs exercise....

In response to a different message, Robert Howe wrote,
>>Jesus Christ, why would anyone lacquer a 1919 Saxophone?  This utterly
changes the authenticity and historical value of the horn.... Keep your old
horns clean and well regulated and don't take off any metal or put any lacquer
on.  They will play better, keep their value as antiques better and be of more
value and interest to your grandchildren that way.>>

IMHO, relacquering an antique horn is vandalism, even if the horn originally
had lacquer finish that's now in worn condition.  Musicians (who need the
instrument in the best possible playing condition) and the "collectibles"
crowd (preservationists) might have different perspectives on these questions,
but according to antiques dealers, it's important to leave the finish on old
metal objects in as original condition as possible, even if it looks grungy.
Conventional wisdom (repeated on nearly every episode of the TV program,
"Antiques Roadshow," for instance) is that objects lose at least half their
value if the owner strips off the original paint, lacquer or patina and that a
natural patina can be as valuable as an artificial one put on by the
manufacturer.  Might be a good idea to show that "red rot" to an antiques
specialist before making an irreversible decision.  Ask whether that specific
form of oxidation is one of the "good" patinas or a "bad" corrosion, like
rust, that needs to come off to protect the metal that's left.

I'm confused by the advice antiques dealers give about tarnish on silver. I
understand the distinction between light, regular polishing with soft cloth
(good) and harsh, chemical stripping (bad), but is it good to prevent tarnish
but bad to remove it once it's there?  How old does an object have to be
before keeping it spiffy becomes immoral?  And by what arcane methods of
divination can one determine the exact moment when oxidation crosses the
threshhold from the mundane housekeeping problem into the realm of the sacred
and untouchable?  (Maybe you toss a bunch of reeds in the air, look at the way
they fall and add up how many point north, how many point south, etc.?)
Life's little mysteries.

Frank D Diaz wrote,
>>I've come across 2 Conn Basses that were stripped and laquered. Both were
ABSOLUTELY butchered ! If you want this done, you better go to a 1st rate,
properly equipped shop. To keep the horn authentic, it should be replated
instead. No body metal has to be removed this way, except for the tiny amount
removed while leveling the tone holes, if any.>>

Even re-plating may not be the greatest idea if it's a total re-plating.  My
Conn bass (satin silver with gold wash in the bell and on the keys) is
battered-looking, but I decided to leave the original finish alone.  Glad I
didn't do anything I couldn't reverse, because I recently saw something that
convinced me I would have regretted it.  Last spring, at the Richmond,
Virginia "Big Flea," I saw a Buescher True-Tone tenor from the early 1920s
that had been fully re-plated in silver.  In other ways, too, the overhaul
went well beyond restoration, and included such modernizations as pads with
big domed resonaters ("Selmer Super-80" style).  The sax looked beautiful, but
it didn't look like a Buescher True-Tone any more, and probably didn't play
like one, either, with those pads.  It looked like a new sax.  The dealer
asked $1200 for it (probably would have come down some, but to judge from his
aggressive style, I doubt he would have gone much below $1000).  Replacing
those resonator pads would have meant paying for another overhaul. Though I
love vintage horns, I discovered that I had not the slightest interest in that
sax, let alone at that price.  For me, it had lost its personality. Evidently
other people felt the same way, because when I went back to the Big Flea two
weekends ago, the dealer still had that sax, along with some other instruments
similarly "improved" and similarly pricey that he'd also had since last
spring.  Sure hope he likes them, because he seems to have collected them! --
and that's at a market that's terribly picked-over, where anything good with a
fair price on it disappears about five minutes after the gates open.

Part of what I like about old horns is the feeling of connection with history.
I don't want them to look or sound "like new."  Last weekend, I found a
Buescher True-Tone tenor, similar vintage (1920-1925).  This one is lacquered
brass, with some wear on the lacquer and a little bit of "red rot" here and
there. It looks its age. Unless someone tells me that "red rot" is a problem,
I'm going to leave it alone; and I certainly won't get it relacquered.  I'll
replace the rotted pads (three different kinds on there, all of them in
disgusting condition!) with as close as I can get to the original ones.  If
the result sounds quieter than a spanking new Selmer, fine.  It's NOT a
spanking new Selmer.  If I thought I had to have one of those, I'd sell all my
other horns, put the cat in hock (as an alarm clock) and buy one.

Frank D Diaz also wrote,
>> Around 1917, a gold plated Conn Bass was around $235.00 if I remember
reading correctly.>>

Amazing what you could get for the money back then.  Inside the mouthpiece cap
that apparently came with my 1926 bass sax is a price written in ink, in a
style of handwriting taught at the turn of the last century: $190.  When I
cleaned up the silver-plated cap, I carefully preserved the price tag!

(Just kidding about the cat.  Sure hope she couldn't read what I wrote about
her while she was helping me type.  Uh-oh, I'm in trouble now....)

Lelia
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Age before beauty."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 17:25:52 -0500
From: Michael Cogswell <Michael_Cogswell@gtsi.com>
To: "'list@contrabass.com'" <list@contrabass.com>
Subject: RE: Vintage metal finishes

This is an extremely controversial subject in any area of antiques or
collectibles.  As is often the case, the only correct answer is: "Your
mileage may vary."  Generally speaking, the biggest factors are age and
originality.  The older something is, the more desirable it becomes to have
as much of the original finish or condition preserved.  In my case, I
collect US Model 1855 Rifle-Muskets and derivatives.  These were the basic
infantry weapon of the US Civil War.  If I had a fairly modern rifle, say an
M1 from the Second World War, I wouldn't think much about carefully cleaning
it to remove oils and discoloration without removing or damaging in any way
the original Parkerizing.  On the other hand, I have a Colt "Special Model"
1861 Rifle-Musket that is still covered with it's original oil.  Cleaning
that dried, brownish, splotchy discoloration off the metal would destroy 50%
of its value.  Original finish is always a good thing.  Patina is another
matter.  IMHO, patina is only really good if its really old.  I have a nice
second model 1863 that once was a nice, bright, bare iron or steel on all
its metal surfaces.  Those surfaces are now a uniform very dark brown, the
result of 135 years of handling without cleaning.  This patina serves to
prove the musket is in original, unaltered condition since any alterations
would have locally destroyed the "finish." It also increases its value to a
collector. However, I have also on occasion very carefully cleaned an
acquisition to remove rust and stains that were the result of fairly recent
neglect. If it's recent it isn't patina, it's rust.  So, I guess my opinion
(after 30 years of collecting)is that you should try to preserve the
original condition or long term patina as your first choice, but carefully
remove recent neglect.  If you have an instrument that was originally
polished silver plate, and is still shiny, then keep it nice and clean and
shiny like a new dime.  Just remember that you don't want to polish it so
aggressively you destroy the finish you are trying to preserve.  If it's
pretty shiny with some fingerprints, clean it.  On the other hand, if it has
a nice black patina because it hasn't been cleaned in 150 years, this isn't
a great time to break out the polishing clothe.  In either case, don't even
think about stripping of the original plating and/or replating it.

MikeC

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Nov 98 18:09:20 -0600
From: Richard Fenno <rfenno@earthlink.net>
To: <list@contrabass.com>
Subject: Int'l Bass Saxophone Registry

The subconscious asserts itself in odd ways, and I can prove it.

Last year about this time I was working on a book (see sig line for
shameless plug: available on Amazon or drop me a line for one of the ones
in my garage). I had a bari sax in the closet, and I'd done exactly ONE
gig on it all year. It was a 132xxx low A Selmer. I'd played it on Stan
Kenton's band, where I was shocked to find that all the bass sax parts
had been transposed, but that's another story. It was a pretty good horn,
but the modern ones with low As play so much more in tune (this ought to
start a thread!) . . . And I had a deal cooking with a Taiwanese outfit
that might still net me a bari.

I was toying with the idea of getting a bass sax for any number of
reasons. But I was out of work and living off my advance and not very
well at that. I shopped a horn or two, but there was no bread. (Someone
on this list shared the other end of this frustrating experience.) That's
when the lightbulb went off over my head. saxmanpete had a silver
Wurlitzer (Conn stencil) bass he wanted to trade interesting horns for,
and my bari had enough interest for him.

Meanwhile, I'm writing the book. If you've ever read these computer
books, you know there's a metaphorical hole a lot of writers fall into,
that goes something like this: "Aunt Fannie's Brownies is thinking of
putting up a website." Sound familiar?

I had already thrown in a few pictures of Conn altos (Tony Campise's Chu,
it was), so the direction was more or less there. I needed to have an
all-purpose metaphor into which each technique of Claris Homepage 3 could
be shown to advantage--frames, tables, connecting to FileMaker Pro
databases. Some switch in my head threw itself and the International Bass
Saxophone Registry was born. After all, there is a finite number of
instruments, we are all an odd bunch of folks with stories to tell (and
stories to LEARN) about our horns. Except for the contributions of a few
owners (including a couple on this list) I regret to say that the
Registry has yet to move off my hard drive and the pages of my book (see
below).

Someday, fair listmates, I promise that the International Bass Saxophone
Registry will exist. But I do have lots to do, like right now into the
monkey suit and off to the gig. On alto.

Later!

RF

Richard Fenno * Austin, Texas
Saxophones, Woodwinds, Arranging, Music Prep
Author of Claris Home Page 3 for Windows & Macintosh, a Visual QuickStart Guide

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 18:51:27 -0200
From: timjt@awod.com (Timothy Tikker)
To: list@contrabass.com
Subject: RE: Vintage metal finishes

Well, what would readers advise on my 1913 King C soprano saxophone with
non-lacquered satin-finish gold plating?  I have begun to polish it with
silver polish with good results, though not definitive.  It was quite dirty
looking, and the cleaned finish looks quite handsome.  Is this perhaps a
mistake?

Don't worry -- I won't lacquer it!

- Tim Tikker

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:53:08 -0800
From: Grant Green <gdgreen@contrabass.com>
To: list@contrabass.com
Subject: Re: Int'l Bass Saxophone Registry

>The subconscious asserts itself in odd ways, and I can prove it.

A fact self-evident to most of us here ;-)

>Last year about this time I was working on a book (see sig line for
>shameless plug: available on Amazon or drop me a line for one of the ones
>in my garage). I had a bari sax in the closet, and I'd done exactly ONE
>gig on it all year. It was a 132xxx low A Selmer. I'd played it on Stan
>Kenton's band, where I was shocked to find that all the bass sax parts
>had been transposed, but that's another story. It was a pretty good horn,
>but the modern ones with low As play so much more in tune (this ought to
>start a thread!) . . . And I had a deal cooking with a Taiwanese outfit
>that might still net me a bari.

Years ago, I heard that many people preferred the low Bb bari because it
played in tune better.  I bought a low A (SA80II) model anyway, and never
regretted it.  I suppose that counts as one of the modern ones, though...

***
>Meanwhile, I'm writing the book. If you've ever read these computer
>books, you know there's a metaphorical hole a lot of writers fall into,
>that goes something like this: "Aunt Fannie's Brownies is thinking of
>putting up a website." Sound familiar?
>
>I had already thrown in a few pictures of Conn altos (Tony Campise's Chu,
>it was), so the direction was more or less there. I needed to have an
>all-purpose metaphor into which each technique of Claris Homepage 3 could
>be shown to advantage--frames, tables, connecting to FileMaker Pro
>databases. Some switch in my head threw itself and the International Bass
>Saxophone Registry was born. After all, there is a finite number of
>instruments, we are all an odd bunch of folks with stories to tell (and
>stories to LEARN) about our horns. Except for the contributions of a few
>owners (including a couple on this list) I regret to say that the
>Registry has yet to move off my hard drive and the pages of my book (see
>below).

What a wonderful, *subversive* idea!  Spreading the mania to unsuspecting
web designers when they least expect it... I only wish I could join - still
haven't been able to talk my wife into a bass sax  :-(

>Someday, fair listmates, I promise that the International Bass Saxophone
>Registry will exist. But I do have lots to do, like right now into the
>monkey suit and off to the gig. On alto.

You could always lug the bari along for playing solos - same key, but an
octave lower ;-)

Enjoy!

Grant
 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant Green                        gdgreen@contrabass.com
sarrusophones and other seismic devices
list@contrabass.com             http://www.contrabass.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 20:47:22 -0400
From: ROBERT HOWE <arehow@vgernet.net>
To: list@contrabass.com
Cc: David.Johnson7@PSS.Boeing.com, aronsoninst@msn.com
Subject: Re: Conn Bass Sax  finishes prior to 1920.

THANK YOU FRANK DIAZ!!  I have seen far, far too many similar
butcheries, including a once-gorgeous Conn high F baritone, stripped and
buffed so extensively that the trade mark was barely legible before
being lacquered by someone who appeared to have used his feet to run the
equipment.  Call Marc Aronsen (aronsoninst@msn.com) for superb
restorations of historical woodwinds, at a very reasonable price.  He is
doing my 1863 Adolphe Sax alto even now.

Robert Howe

Frank D Diaz wrote:
...
> I've come across 2 Conn Basses that were stripped and laquered. Both were ABSOLUTELY
> butchered ! If you want this done, you better go to a 1st rate, properly equipped shop. To
> keep the horn authentic, it should be replated instead. No body metal has to be removed
> this way, except for the tiny amount removed while leveling the tone holes, if any.
>
> Frank Diaz

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 20:57:29 -0400
From: ROBERT HOWE <arehow@vgernet.net>
To: list@contrabass.com
Subject: Re: Bass Sax Finishes, Hard Cases,E-Bay

Conn, Buescher, and other such novices as Adolphe Sax made brass
Saxophones with nickle plate.  Very beautiful, I have one each by Conn
(baritone, 1929) and Sax (alto 1865), and have seen COnns in all sizes
from soprano down, including C melody.  I must believe that this was a
factory option.

And for God's sake, the bigger the horn, the more it needs a hard case.

Robert Howe

Johnson, David L wrote:
.... my 1915 Conn.  When I got it I
> took it to a knowledgabe Bass Sax player and Instrument repairman to have it
> checked out to be sure it wasn't a stripped silver or nickle horn turned to
> brass.  This would be a wise move for any novice such as I to do when
> considering buying a vintage sax. ...... It is an example of why
> you should use a hard case instead of a gig pack. Also a good idea to keep
> them in their case when not in use, heard of a bass sax that got knocked
> over and damaged in an earthquake.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 16:52:01 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
From: Frank D Diaz <Frank.D.Diaz@wdc.com>
To: list@contrabass.com,
    timjt@awod.com
Subject: RE: RE: Vintage metal finishes

I hope I'm not speaking heresy here, but what I've done with satin gold plated saxes is to
remove all of the keys, gently adjust the leveling of the tone holes  as needed and then
very, very lightly scratch brush the horn. If you press too hard, the gold will flake off
and reveal the silver plating under the gold plating.

The wheel should be turning slowly, the brush soft and not embedded with any thing and the
horn kept constantly wet with a mixture of water and Tide or similar detergent.

When done, rinse off with hot water and pat dry (hot water evaporates faster). The results
will be beautiful ! You can usually do the same to the keys. If the horn has a burnished
finish, don't scratch brush it. You'll leave marks ! I would just clean it with a good
polish and warm soapy water.

I'm getting a 108XXX series Conn satin gold plated C-soprano tomorrow  !

Frank Diaz
----------
------------------------------

End of list V1 #22
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