Contrabass Digest
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1998-09-06

 
list                           Sun, 6 Sep 1998            Volume 1 : Number 80

In this issue:
 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 23:16:20 EDT
From: CoolStu67@aol.com
To: list@contrabass.com
Subject: Re: Does this stuff really exist?

Well, I can "produce" a Db below the bass clef (bari sax and bass clarinet's
lowest note) but it is very weak... the lowest note I can sing with good
volume and tone is an Eb.

Stuart
        - Eb Alto Sax
        - Bb Bass clarinet
        - EEb Contrabass clarinet
 

>Hi all.  I'm a tuba/euphonium/bone/bass guy.  I've been trying to answer
>a few questions, and I figure some of you guys might be able to give me a
>hand.  First off, I have heard rumors of a stringed instrument pitched an
>octave below the double-bass (quadruple-bass, I guess?).  Does this
>exist?  The only way it could is if a) the strings were something like a
>1/2" in diameter, or b) the instrument was about twelve feet tall.
>Secondarily, I've been wondering about just how far a human's vocal cords
>can go.  I've heard of Russian sub-basses singing down to A (equivalent
>to the A string on a double-bass) and still retaining good tone and
>volume.  Anybody verify or top these?  Better yet, anybody actually able
>to sing that low?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 07:14:23 -0200
From: timjt@awod.com (Timothy Tikker)
To: <list@contrabass.com>
Subject: Re: list V1 #79: Octobass

I have seen the Octobass in the instrument museum at the Paris
Conservatoire -- my wife took a photo of me standing next to it in 1987!

It's quite tall... I'd have to check the photo, but perhaps 12-15 feet...?
It stands on a platform, which incorporates and organ-style pedalboard,
which operates fretting mechanism for the strings (since the "fingerboard"
is too far away to be operated directly by the fingers);  I suppose there's
also a stool, then.  The instrument had three strings, quite thick of
course.  Unfortunately, I never heard it.

- Timothy Tikker

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 13:18:54 CDT
From: "Gregg Bailey" <greggbailey@hotmail.com>
To: list@contrabass.com
Subject: Baß Klarinetten

<from Robert>
>I do not have a metal bass clarinet in my collection, altho I would  like
>to;

        What does one look like and sound like?????

>Adolphe Sax's revised bass clarinet was straight, range
>only to E rather than to the modern Eb or C.

        Please tell me all about this.  Is it still made?  Was it wood?  Was it
just like a clarinet in every respect just an octave lower?  This is
what I want.  Was it completely straight, barrel and everything?

>In clarients made in
>modern times, I have a G soprano/alto clarinet, in metal, straight,
>range to E.

        Who makes this?  How much is one?

>"Bassett horns" in F are also made in straight models
>extending only to low E, rather than to the C that a true Bassetto has
>had since Mozart's days.

        Is it completely straight?  Who makes it and for how much?

<from Frank>
>Greg, the longest clarinet that I've played is one pitched in low G, 1 whole tone lower
>than the A clarinet. They are available from "Lark In The Morning",  Mendicino, CA and cost
>about $450.00. They only have Albert Systems available, though.

        Cool!  Why so inexpensive???  Does it have the same range as one of
Boehm system?  Is it straight and wood?

>Since the Basset Clarinet
>in A goes to low C, it's still a little longer than the low G model.

        Right.  I just want a true straight bass, though.  It's because of my
earlier discussion of the Bb clarinet having so much solidity,
liquidness, prettiness, and oomph in its lowest range, while the
standard bass clarinet sounds thinner and doesn't have as much character
as the clarinet.  I honestly don't understand why no one agreed with me
on this.  The low range of the bass clarinet emphasizes alot of high
harmonics, and less fundamental, while the low range of the Bb clarinet
is the opposite.  My whole head vibrates when I play low notes on my
cheap wooden clarinet with force; the bass clarinet doesn't do this.  I
believe it is a combination of the turns in the windway, the neck and
bell being of metal, and the body not being in proportion to that of a
clarinet.
        A clarinet sounds so round and square-wavy in the low end, while the
bass clarinet just sounds buzzy and unimpressive.  So when Robert Howe
mentions one that is alot like the clarinet, my attention is grabbed!
        I wish music would utilize the low register of the clarinet much more
than the high; but it is currently the other way around.  It is funny to
me that the best clarinet players are put on the parts that have the
highest notes!  I know it is because these are the toughest notes to
produce, but still...
        First of all, it seems wasteful to have an instrument 2' long, and to
write music for it that utilizes notes of only 1' and higher!  (Same for
flutes and oboes)

>For years, Leblanc offered a straight F Alto Clarinet to Low E.

        You and Robert must be referring to the same 2 instruments.?

>I know Kohlert made quite few metal Alto and Bass Clarinets.

        I've never in my life seen any!  Where can a person see them or a
picture of them?

>All the ones I've seen were
>made in the standard shape. If they were straight, you probably
couldn't reach the keys !

        Well, the finger keys would have to be adjusted, of course.
        I want to someday have my own line of instruments; here's what I
envision for the contra clarinets and the octocontra clarinets:
The contras would be basically shaped like a Selmer Paris one is,
although the neck will come down far enough to be playable sitting in a
standard band chair; the body AND the straight part of the neck will be
of grenadilla wood; all keys, bell, and curved section of neck will be
solid silver.  Is solid silver better than silver-plating, as far as
wearing off or tarnishing is concerned?
        The octocontras will be just like the contras, except they will be
shaped like the current Leblanc paperclip contrabass.  They will go down
to the ground, however.  Again, all straight sections will be of
grenadilla wood.  All contras and octocontras will go down to low C and
have all trill keys and alternate-fingering keys.  They will come apart
at all places where there is a bend in the windway, as well as at many
places along the straight sections, so that it can all be put in a small
case.  I will have to figure out a way to make it easy to put all the
sections together, as well as sell the whole thing at a low price.
        Sound like a deal??  Also, I'll need to figure out a way to make the
mechanisms extremely sturdy so as to not have constant adjustment
problems and repair difficulty.  Whenever I take the old Leblanc
paperclip contrabass in for repair, the repairman always tells me that
the "rib" key mechanisms (as I call them) are such that if you adjust
one just right, the others are now out of whack.  I hate that!!  There's
nothing that can be done to it to make the low Eb not muddy sounding!

<from Jean>
>I own a very nice Kohlert Bass clarinet with Boehm system fingerings.
>It is difficult to tell how old it is because the condition of it is so
>good.

        Is it metal?  Where did you get it, and for how much?

<from Stuart>
>Hey everyone, I just got my Eb contra from the school today and it plays
>great! It is a Selmer Bundy USA

        Aren't they all?!!  It seems like that's the only kind a school owns,
besides the rosewood.

>The only thing I've noticed is that
>the difference between low E and low Eb isn't very great; what could be the
>readon for this?

        Do you mean in tone quality or in pitch?

>Right now I'm using Rico bari sax reeds number 3 but hopefully I'll
>be getting a box of Vandoren contrabass reads number 2...

        I don't think Vandoren makes any contra-alto reeds.  Many people on the
list say that a reed made for a contrabass isn't also fitted for a
contra-alto mouthpiece; this must be true, because a contra-alto
mouthpiece is way too small to fit into the neck of a contrabass.  There
are frequently new people to the list who bring this issue up, but I
don't know what the resolve is.?  I guess Grant needs to make a seperate
webpage dealing with the issue!!
        How old are you, anyway, and where are you?  I'm 16 in Odessa, TX.

>- Alto sax
>- Bass clarinet
>- Eb Contrabass clarinet (YES!)

        You'll probably end up with so many on that list that you'll need to
just say Saxophones, Clarinets, Flutes, etc...!!

        Well, REPLY PEOPLE!!!!!!
        -Gregg Bailey

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 13:32:39 CDT
From: "Gregg Bailey" <greggbailey@hotmail.com>
To: list@contrabass.com
Subject: low stuff!

Lelia,

>Does anyone know of any reports of extremely low-pitched sounds causing
>physical harm to people?

        I once went to a website that a teenage girl put together; she is a
theatre organist, and one of her webpages was of her visit to the
monster organ at the Atlantic City Convention Hall--you know, the one
with the 64' Diaphone?  Anyway, she says that she tried that stop all by
itself, and the lowest note starts out sounding like a windy air
conditioner, and then you all of a sudden start feeling the slow 8 Hz
vibration; she says that she felt naucious after that!  I wish I had the
URL for that webpage; I think I can get it for you soon.
        I don't know--I'd just have to experience that for myself.  Of course,
since I'm a guy, I wouldn't have to worry about that alleged "average
resonance frequency of 8 Hz for the female breast", as someone on this
list so aptly put it!

<from MG>
>There have been cases where a group of soldiers marching in cadence
>across a bridge have caused the bridge to collapse because their cadence
>of footsteps was equal to the resonant frequency of the structure,
>roughly 1*-2 hz.  You would have to stretch a bit to consider a 2 hz
>vibration as a sound,

        I would, but only if it were produced by an instrument.  Who has proven
that it collapsed due to resonance, and not just by the large group
stomping at the same time?
        -Gregg
 
 
 

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Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 13:52:05 CDT
From: "Gregg Bailey" <greggbailey@hotmail.com>
To: list@contrabass.com
Subject: Not High!

<from Lelia>
>A TV
>documentary that described this legend played big old organ pedal BWWWAAAAAAA
>as background music.

        What's BWWWAAAAAAA???????????

>According to a similar fable,
>the Druids sang the stones into place at Stonehenge.

        Just what do you mean by "sang the stones into place"?  Maybe this is
how the great Pyramids were built!

>I will refrain from asking (re. a previous post from Paul Sheldon) exactly
>what the female breast does when it resonates.

        There it is!!!  Speaking of, I plan on designing the world's largest
pipe organ; it is going to be not only a monster in itself, but it will
be duplicated on all walls of a very resonant and reverberant room; it
will have a multitude of 64' stops (down to 8 Hz).  When I use those
stops, I should get an interesting reaction from a certain percentage of
the audience.
                ;>
        -Gregg
 
 

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 13:59:15 CDT
From: "Gregg Bailey" <greggbailey@hotmail.com>
To: list@contrabass.com
Subject: Sarah's note

<from Sarah>
>Maybe locate a friendly, slightly mad scientist in the department of
>acoustical engineering at some big university and ask for facts?  Maybe
>U. C. Berkeley, where it all started?

        Where is U.C. Berkeley?  I think I would like to become an acoustical
engineer.  What exactly do they do?  Are they rich?  Would this U.C.
Berkely be THE place to go for people who want to become acoustical
engineers?
        Thanks,
        Gregg
 
 

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 15:05:57 CDT
From: "Gregg Bailey" <greggbailey@hotmail.com>
To: list@contrabass.com
Subject: Octobass Viol!

Michael,

>Hi all.  I'm a tuba/euphonium/bone/bass guy.

        So you're new to the list?  How old are you and where are you?  I'm 16
in Odessa, TX.  (List:  Sorry that I keep saying that, but I like to
know who is close to my age, and I like for them to know about me, too!!)

>I have heard rumors of a stringed instrument pitched an
>octave below the double-bass (quadruple-bass, I guess?).  Does this
>exist?

        Most definitely!  I have a couple of pictures, and here's what the
captions say:

1. I copied this out of a book in the library: "Octo-bass, by J. B.
Vuillaume, Paris, 1849.  Vienna, Society of Friends of Music"
        The instrument is shaped like a big violin, is more than twice the
height of the man playing it, and he is standing on a box!  I can see
only 3 strings, and if I remember right, the player changes notes by way
of footpedals of some sort.  Does anybody know more?

2. This is in the 1985 "Special Edition" of the Guinness Book of World
Records, p.151.  "Largest Double Bass Viol:  Built in 1924 in Ironia,
NJ, this 14-ft-tall instrument had leathern strings.  The builder
(Arthur K. Ferris) said he had taken his order from the Archangel
Gabriel."  The actual text says more:  "It weighed 1,300 lb with a sound
box 8 ft across, and had strings totaling 104 ft.  Its low notes could
be felt rather than heard."  This is a different instrument from #1; it
looks to be about the same height, but the shape is much different.  It
has 4 strings, and the bottom of the soundbox is much wider than the top
of it.  The bow looks like a standard double bass bow!

        What does this entry mean?:  "Five members of "Bass Ten" from
Bournemouth, Dorset, England, bowed and 5-fingered a double bass
simultaneously in a rendition of Monti's Czardas on Oct 25, 1981."

        Once, in one of my posts to the list, I asked if anyone knew the ranges
of the huge instruments in the Guinness, and I think no one responded.?
This 1985 edition is the ONLY one I have ever seen that includes
pictures of these musical instruments.  Last year, I saw a recent one in
a bookstore, and there were no pictures of the instruments, though there
were many color photos of other things.  This 1985 edition has
black-and-white images only.  There are pictures of a monster electric
guitar, harp, and harmonica, as well as the double bass, alphorn, 39-ft
tuba, and smallest violin.  Some of these have been topped since!!
Doesn't ANYBODY on the list know anything about what these instruments
sound like?????  Especially the electric guitar and harp!!
        There is now a Guinness World Records TV show on; I like it, though
I've only seen it once.  I emailed them about a month ago asking if they
could have one of their stories be about the largest organ pipes, but I
haven't heard back from them.  Has anyone on the list seen an episode of
the show that had musical instruments on it?

>Secondarily, I've been wondering about just how far a human's vocal cords
>can go.  I've heard of Russian sub-basses singing down to A (equivalent
>to the A string on a double-bass) and still retaining good tone and
>volume.  Anybody verify or top these?

        Yes!  A couple of years ago, I went to a very cool A Capella concert,
and the bass singer went as low as the Gb/F# below your alleged "A"!
        I don't know what the latest Guinness says, but the 1994 edition states
that Dan Britton of Branson, MI, can produce the note E-0 (18.84 Hz)!
This is an octave and a fourth lower than your alleged "A"!!!  It also
states that Mozart called for a D (73.4 Hz) (a fourth above your A) in
Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail in Osmin's aria.
        I, myself, can produce notes down to below 8 Hz "C", but I don't know
how I do it.  I just breathe in a certain way, and something in my
throat vibrates very loudly; I can change pitch up to many octaves
singing a note *backwards* in this way!  I can make my epiglottis flap
at about C 16 Hz by exhaling forcefully out of my nose; I can hold it
for a few seconds.  I can growl a convincing note down to about E 40 Hz.
If I breathe in forcefully through my nose, I can make my epiglottis
snor down to about B 30 Hz!

>Better yet, anybody actually able
>to sing that low?

        Singing a note in the normal way, I can only go down to about G 96 Hz.
How disappointing!  I know many guys my age who TALK much lower than
that!!  (Not as in smoker's-voice)
        Well, I hope I helped some.
        -Gregg
 
 
 

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 15:11:25 -0500
From: Matthew Hanson <mchanson@infohwy.com>
To: list@contrabass.com
Subject: Re: Baß Klarinetten

>        Right.  I just want a true straight bass, though.  It's because >of my
>earlier discussion of the Bb clarinet having so much solidity,
>liquidness, prettiness, and oomph in its lowest range, while the
>standard bass clarinet sounds thinner and doesn't have as much >character
>as the clarinet.  I honestly don't understand why no one agreed with me
>on this.

What kind of bass clarinet are you playing on?
That could have a LOT to do with it.
Experience with time may be the best answer a lot of your questions.
Matthew Hanson
http://www.infohwy.com/~bkburks/mch/music_m.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 15:34:52 -0500
From: "Paul S. Johnson" <pjohnson@pro-ns.net>
To: list@contrabass.com
Subject: Re: bass singers

> Secondarily, I've been wondering about just how far a human's vocal cords
> can go.  I've heard of Russian sub-basses singing down to A (equivalent
> to the A string on a double-bass) and still retaining good tone and
> volume.  Anybody verify or top these?  Better yet, anybody actually able
> to sing that low?

Isaac Freeman, the bass singer of the Farfield Four (a capella gospel
group), sings a nice growlly low B (N.B.: gleaned from a radio show I
captured on cassette so I don't know if the pitch is exactly on). I also
caught their show recently at the Minnesota State Fair. I didn't get a
chance to talk to him but have always been curious how low he can go. He
is certainly within striking distance of a low A. I bet it is a godsend
to be a first tenor and sing with him because tunes can be pitched lower
because of his extended range and keep the high tenors off the ceiling.
BTW, the pool of true basses and altos is shrinking worldwide for some
unknown reason.

Hey, I also caught frequent contrabass-list contributor Mark Rubin
backing up Texas honkytonk singer Dale Watson on string bass at the MN
State Fair. I also recently spotted him playing tuba in the film "The
Newton Boys" just out on video. Check it out. Mark was music supervisor
for the film. Nice work Mark.

Paul S. Johnson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 15:48:06 -0500
From: Matthew Hanson <mchanson@infohwy.com>
To: list@contrabass.com
Subject: Re: Baß Klarinetten

>I want to someday have my own line of instruments; here's what I
>envision for the contra clarinets and the octocontra clarinets:
>The contras would be basically shaped like a Selmer Paris one is,
>although the neck will come down far enough to be playable sitting in a
>standard band chair

The Selmer Paris BBb Contrabass clarinet IS playable by sitting a
regular chair, just like the rest of the ensemble.
Check out the one on my web page.
OLD pic, but gives you a basic idea of the design.

You ask why most schools own the Bundy Eb contras?
Well, the bore is small and it has all of the trill keys, where as the
Vito has a funky design and intonation of the upper register is
absolutely horrible. The Vito has no trill keys, just the Eb.  I beleive
the bore is far too big on this instrument. The Bundy responds much
better and is far more versital. It is the only other inexpensive mass
produced Eb Contra. They are also far more durable and easier to repair
than the Vito.

One more thing...
You seem so obsessed with the fact that a straight bass clarinet will
have a more "round" sound like the Bb clarinet.
Bends in an instrument usually mellow the sound or timbre.
Your straight bass would be characteristically more edgy than a normal one.
Today, people play on LA Sax's straight saxophones not only for the fad,
but because they have a more edgy, reedy sound.
Theory suggests that bends in the bore of an instrument can also cause
the tone to sound like the bore is larger at those points.
I can't imagine the discomfort of playing on a truely straght bass
clarinet with no turns in the neck.  If you could use that and have
proper technique, more power to ya, but hey, I for one couldn't.
Sounds kinda ridiculous to me.
just my thoughts...
Matt

hope this helps,
Matt

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 17:43:52 -0400
From: mgrogg@juno.com
To: list@contrabass.com
Subject: Re: low stuff!

On Sun, 06 Sep 1998 13:32:39 CDT "Gregg Bailey" <greggbailey@hotmail.com> writes:

><from MG>
>>There have been cases where a group of soldiers marching in cadence
>>across a bridge have caused the bridge to collapse because their cadence
>>of footsteps was equal to the resonant frequency of the structure,
>>roughly 1*-2 hz.  You would have to stretch a bit to consider a 2 hz
>>vibration as a sound,
>
>       I would, but only if it were produced by an instrument.  Who
>has proven that it collapsed due to resonance, and not just by the large group
>stomping at the same time?
>       -Gregg

The live load of the soldiers should not be enough to break a bridge.
When they stomp as you put it at the harmonic frequency of the bridge, it
will build up in amplitude until the bridge will fail.

All structures, by their nature, have a sympathetic resonance.  If you
excite that structure at that resonant frequency, you can cause it to
fail  ie a soprano breaking a wine glass.  During the 1930's there was a
famous bridge collapse when the wind caused the bridge to vibrate at its
resonant frequency.

When I was in Helicopter flight school, one of the helicopter models
(OH-23)  could not be idled at a certain rpm range because  a harmonic
vibration would build up and the tail assembly would fall apart.  I
believe there were also crashes of the original Lockheed Electra airliner
when minor turbulence would induce a vibration in the wing spar, which
would fail.

MG

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End of list V1 #80
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