Contrabass Digest
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1998-07-23

 
list                           Thu, 23 Jul 1998           Volume 1 : Number 39

In this issue:
 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:22:06 -0700
From: Grant Green <gdgreen@contrabass.com>
To: list@contrabass.com
Subject: Re: Many-a-low-topic, BSN

At 12:19 PM 7/22/98 -0500, Matthew Hanson wrote:
>I can understand your curiosity, but the concept is much like the idea
>of wanting to put a double reed on a saxophone-like object. It has been
>done and that makes it another individual instrument.

Well, the sarrusophone and rothophone aren't *exactly* double reed
saxophones: the bore is still much narrower than a sax bore.  A
sarrusophone played with a single reed mpc *does* sound a lot like a sax,
but it tends to sound like a *smaller* sax (e.g., a bass sarrusophone
sounds more like a bari or tenor sax).

>As far as your curiosity about the small bore size of reed end of a
>bassoon, it works. If the bore were larger there, it would make the
>instrument less agile and it would be a bit difficult to fit a reed on a
>bassoon bocal with a bore of .5" . Since the reed is a double reed, the
>bore must be a bit small on that end to permit vibration to continue.
>This is why even on the contrabasson, the opening of the bocal is so
>small.

Actually, rackets have a pretty wide bore at the reed end - they have a
cylindrical bore.  The reed is made attached to a short length of tubing
that slides into a socket.  One could make double reeds for wide bore horns
the same way, or slide the reed tube over the end, as on English horn.
You'd just have to make reeds differently.

***
>Think about the extreme low range of contrabass woodwinds and how
>similar they can all sound to some people. In addition, the same natural
>occurance happens with the extreme high range of soprano and sopranino
>woodwinds. Waves far apart and close together have this in common.

I always thought that sopranino instruments, in their upper registers, all
tend to sound alike because their higher partials rapidly climb out of the
audible range.  Most of the timbre comes from (a) the attack, and (b) the
ratios of the higher partials to the fundamental.  If you can only hear the
fundamental and the next two or three partials, it may be difficult to
distinguish whats left of the timbre.  In contrast, with low pitched
instruments, a large number of the partials should be in the audible
region.  I think difficulty distinguishing between bass or contrabass
instruments is more a matter of lack of familiarity.

Enjoy!

Grant
 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant D. Green                  gdgreen@contrabass.com
www.contrabass.com     Just filling in on sarrusophone
Contrabass email list:             list@contrabass.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 20:30:46 -0500
From: Matthew Hanson <mchanson@infohwy.com>
To: list@contrabass.com
Subject: Re: Many-a-low-topic, BSN

Thanks for the touchup on my statement, Mr. Green. There were a few
things I was a bit unsure how to compare.
I was, however referring to modern, more common instruments for better
familiarity.
Also, note the word "saxophone-like".  I hesitated to mention
sarrusophones to avoid myself starting a huge tangent! So Tempting!
I did not think of the racket while discussing small reed/large bore, as
I am not particularly fond of the instrument and its characteristics.
Again, I was attempting simple comments. Had I aimed to be complete,
mentioning less common instrumens, I'd still be writing :)
hope this helps,
Matthew Hanson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:58:25 EDT
From: <SnSATBBsCb@aol.com>
To: list@contrabass.com
Subject: Longest List ever!

Ok, I'm going to take my chances and say that that last post was the longest
List ever!  Grant, Can you confirm that?

Oh, in response,
I am 13 years old.

***
Also, as a Sax player and a small bassoon player, I'd like to say that there
are keys you barely ever use, making the instrument VERY logical.  It's got a
cool sound, too. =)

Nick

P.S.  I have a feeling we are entering a succession of VERY long posts.
Should be interesting.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 23:13:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Stryder <stryder@mhv.net>
To: list@contrabass.com
Subject: brass valves.

Thinking of the chromatic scale for 1 octave on a brass instrument the
fingering are

1
12
0
2
1
12
23
0
2
1
12
23
13

that totals
7 uses of 1st
7 of 2nd
3 uses of 3rd
and 2 open notes

it changes a bit depending on the octave, but doesn't change so much. only
thing i can think of is probably the order the valves are in now (whole
step, half step, 1 1/2 steps) would be the order they were added. you
didn't go from a natural horn to 5 valve CC tuba. So i guess the first
keyed bugles had one valve which lowered them 1 step. (Bb to C? I dono)
then instrument makers expanded from there.

Maybe I'm wrong, but its interesting thought

--
Alan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:17:20 +0000
From: Kilmer <mc17@duluth.infi.net>
To: list@contrabass.com
Subject: Good Vibrations!

This is kind of a "just for fun" question:
What instruments can really make things vibrate?

-John
(by the way I'm 13 yrs. old,in response to a past post)

 0 0
\___/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 23:18:02 -0400
From: jimkatz@JohnAbbott.qc.ca (Jim Katz)
To: <list@contrabass.com>
Subject: Re: list V1 #37

>Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:26:46 -0400
>From: lederm3 <farfl@idirect.ca>

>Just want to make sure that everyone knows that I take lots of stereophotos of
>big, low-pitched instruments, and musicians (not always big ones, though.)
>Steven Lederman

Do you have any posted on a website?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 01:29:39 EDT
From: <DUNKLPAP@aol.com>
To: list@contrabass.com
Subject: low c

I hear about bass-family clarinets with ranges to low C. I've never seen one.
Where do they put the extra keys?
As well, are these instruments always made with this extension or are they in
some cases altered to have it? I heard of this with the wrap-around, metal
contras. I was referring more to the straight basses of wood or plastic.
I hope I didn't stray too far from stereo bore width fotos.
btw, that musical oddity that I called the 'octobassophone' last week is
actually called the 'contrabassophon'. It shows fotos of it (two of them but
not technically stereo) in a book called The World of Romantic & Modern
Musical Instruments. There are some other neat fotos in there as well.
I hope this message is even remotely interesting for you.
take care!
Douglas

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 07:57:54 -0200
From: timjt@awod.com (Timothy Tikker)
To: <list@contrabass.com>
Subject: Re: list V1 #38

Greg Bailey wrote:

>        Does anybody else agree with me that in general, Bb and Eb clarinet
>parts are too high, and the music sounds too shrill?  If the composer
>wants those high notes to be emitted by a clarinet instrument, why don't
>they write for the tiny octave clarinets to play in their lowest range,
>so that those high notes will have nice timbre?  Then, the Bb and Eb
>clarinets can play much more in their lowest registers, where the notes
>have much more centered, controlled, and pretty sound.

The reason that clarinets higher than the soprano in Eb aren't written for
more frequently is that these instruments, e.g. the Ab clarinet, are
extraordinarily rare, at least in this country.  The shrillness of the high
register of the Eb is something often specifically desired by composers,
e.g. Strauss' Till Eulenspiegel (D clarinet, technically, though it's
usually played on Eb), or Varese's Intergrales or Arcana.

>        Another thing I want to know is why the bores of all clarinet
>instruments lower than the Bb clarinet are so relatively narrow.?  By
>the time you get down to the BBb contra, the bore of the thing is so
>incredibly narrow compared to the length that the lowest notes emit only
>a wealth of upper harmonics and no fundamental at all.  The only reason
>you hear the pitch of the note is because all these (relatively) high
>harmonics beat with each other to produce the lowest harmonics.  But,
>since the lowest ones aren't ACTUALLY produced with any comparable
>strength, the walls of the room don't rattle as they do with organ pipes
>of the same pitch.  When I play on a contra clarinet, it sounds like I'm
>playing on a comb with tissue paper wrapped around it.

A contrabass clarinet with a bore compoarable in scale to a 32' organ pipe
would be a formidable piece of machinery!  Actually, it might be
acoustically unstable.  Organbuilders tell me that half-length cylindrical
reeds -- i.e. clarinet-type resonators -- are especially difficult to
voice.  Sometimes 32' reed stops are made this way, but it's realtively
rare -- the flared-resonator reeds are more common in this range.  Of
course, the thing with organ pipes is that you have one per note, whereas a
clarinet is built to produce several in one resonator via a key mechanism.
Thus it could be that making a successful broad-bore low clarinet would be
especially difficult.

>        Another topic.  The concept of the bassoon is just that of a really big
>oboe.  They're both wooden, both have a conical bore, and a narrow one
>at that, and both are double reed.  All this makes for the same timbre.
>Yet the bassoon is very awkward to play (tho I've never played one
>myself, but I've heard from other sources, and I've seen the keywork),
>and the finger patterns aren't very logical as they are on all other
>woodwinds.  Supposedly the bassoon is the only woodwind that hasn't
>undergone fingering/keywork improvement.  So why, OH WHY, doesn't
>SOMEBODY simply adapt oboe fingering for the bassoon?  After all, the
>BBBb octo-contrabass clarinet has the EXACT same fingering system as the
>tiny octave C clarinet, with the exception of the extended range, of
>course.  I know that the oboe and bassoon are actually 2 different
>families of instruments, because they were developed seperately, but
>they basically have the same relationship as do the extreme clarinets.

Actually, I think it was done, or something nearly like it, with the
Boehm-system bassoon.  It's mentioned briefly in such books as Baines,
along with Boehm-system oboes.

At a Summer Music Workshop in San Francisco in 1976 or so, a woodwind
quartet from the SF Symphony gave a demonstration-lecture which touched on
the topic of the history of key mechanism.  Boehm's developments were of
course mentioned.  Afterwards I asked the bassoonist, Walter Green,
whatever happened to the Boehm-system bassoon.  His eyes lit up, obviously
surprised that a high-school kid had ever heard of such a thing!  He then
said that he actually played such an instrument, at the museum of the
Heckel bassoon factory in Biebrich-am-Rhein, Germany.  He then said "it
wasn't a bassoon!"  He said that the instrument worked very well indeed,
but had been so transformed in the process that it really had become a
completely different instrument, which must be why it never caught on.

>        Does coiling and curving a musical tube, such as the sax and contra
>clarinet, effect the sound it produces?

Curved soprano saxophones sound quite different from straight sopranos --
the curved ones sound just like little altos.  I imagine the same is true
at the lower end.

- Timothy Tikker

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:17:33 -0700
From: Grant Green <gdgreen@contrabass.com>
To: list@contrabass.com
Subject: Re: brass valves.

At 11:13 PM 7/22/98 -0400, Alan wrote:
>Thinking of the chromatic scale for 1 octave on a brass instrument the
>fingering are
***
I think the valves weren't developed with the idea of playing full
chromatic scales in the low register.  The immediate ancestors were natural
horns and trumpets having a series of crooks (short pipes that fit between
the mpc and the body of the horn) to change the key.  Trumpets were often
played in the clarino register (above the staff, where the partials are
closely spaced), and adding a single half-step made it possible to play
most of the scale passages needed.  Pieces that would require notes
unavailable on that setup would be played using a crook to put the trumpet
in a different key, where the notes would be available.  I think on the
horn, the valve was often looked upon as a way to change the key of the
instrument quickly, i.e., as an "instant crook".  Or maybe I need to go
back and re-read Baines...

>it changes a bit depending on the octave, but doesn't change so much. only
>thing i can think of is probably the order the valves are in now (whole
>step, half step, 1 1/2 steps) would be the order they were added. you
>didn't go from a natural horn to 5 valve CC tuba. So i guess the first
>keyed bugles had one valve which lowered them 1 step. (Bb to C? I dono)
>then instrument makers expanded from there.

Yes, it is the order in which they were added as well.

Enjoy!

Grant
 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant D. Green                  gdgreen@contrabass.com
www.contrabass.com     Just filling in on sarrusophone
Contrabass email list:             list@contrabass.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:26:28 -0700
From: Grant Green <gdgreen@contrabass.com>
To: list@contrabass.com
Subject: Re: low c

At 01:29 AM 7/23/98 EDT, Douglas wrote:
>I hear about bass-family clarinets with ranges to low C. I've never seen one.
>Where do they put the extra keys?

Frequently, the additional keys are positioned for the right thumb.  I've
seen the low D key for RT or LH4, and low C# and C for RT.  Basset horns
may have all three keys for LH4 and RH4 - perhaps a subscriber who plays
basset could say?  Contraltos and contrabasses are available with range to
low C, and at least contrabasses are available straight (Selmer) or curved
(Leblanc) with the low C extension.  I've never heard of an alto clarinet
with a low C.

>As well, are these instruments always made with this extension or are they in
>some cases altered to have it? I heard of this with the wrap-around, metal
>contras. I was referring more to the straight basses of wood or plastic.

The bass clarinet to low C is almost always (if not always) wood, generally
a pro-level instrument.  They're always straight.  It is possible to
retrofit a low C extension to a low-Eb horn.  One of the bass clarinetists
in the SJWS actually made his own low-D extension from a piece of wood and
a salvaged bell key (held open or closed by a rubber band).  Doesn't play
both D and Eb, unless you use your feet, but it plays in tune.  (He uses it
only for critical low Ds.)

Enjoy!

Grant
 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant D. Green                  gdgreen@contrabass.com
www.contrabass.com     Just filling in on sarrusophone
Contrabass email list:             list@contrabass.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:29:23 -0700
From: Grant Green <gdgreen@contrabass.com>
To: list@contrabass.com
Subject: Re: list V1 #38

At 07:57 AM 7/23/98 -0200, Timothy Tikker wrote:
>>        Does coiling and curving a musical tube, such as the sax and contra
>>clarinet, effect the sound it produces?
>
>Curved soprano saxophones sound quite different from straight sopranos --
>the curved ones sound just like little altos.  I imagine the same is true
>at the lower end.
>
Good point!  Several soprano saxes now come with both a straight neck and a
curved neck, which produce noticeably different timbres.  Can anyone
comment on the difference in timbre between curved alto and tenor saxes and
the straight altos and tenors now available?  Did anyone ever hear the
straight bari being played?

Grant
 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant D. Green                  gdgreen@contrabass.com
www.contrabass.com     Just filling in on sarrusophone
Contrabass email list:             list@contrabass.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:32:38 -0700
From: Grant Green <gdgreen@contrabass.com>
To: list@contrabass.com
Subject: Re: Many-a-low-topic, BSN

At 08:30 PM 7/22/98 -0500, Matthew wrote:
>Thanks for the touchup on my statement, Mr. Green. There were a few
>things I was a bit unsure how to compare.

Feel free to call me "Grant."

>I was, however referring to modern, more common instruments for better
>familiarity.
>Also, note the word "saxophone-like".  I hesitated to mention
>sarrusophones to avoid myself starting a huge tangent! So Tempting!
>I did not think of the racket while discussing small reed/large bore, as
>I am not particularly fond of the instrument and its characteristics.
>Again, I was attempting simple comments. Had I aimed to be complete,
>mentioning less common instrumens, I'd still be writing :)
>hope this helps,

Don't worry about being too precise or exhaustive: we're just here to
discuss things.  I hope I'm not coming across as being overly critical.

Enjoy!

Grant
 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant D. Green                  gdgreen@contrabass.com
www.contrabass.com     Just filling in on sarrusophone
Contrabass email list:             list@contrabass.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:46:46 EDT
From: <Seebaugh@aol.com>
To: list@contrabass.com
Subject: Fwd:  Strange assortment of stuff FS

I need to reduce my inventory of stuff, so the following items are for sale:
 

I planned to use these items for brass instrument construction and repair projects, but I've lost interest.

Take all of the above for $125!  Everything is located in Brooklyn, NY. Buyers must pick up these items if they are purchased.  I need to get rid of everything by the end of next week, so please email or call 718-788-1729 ASAP
for an appointment.

I also have the following mouthpieces for sale:

$23/each (includes shipping within the continental U.S.).

Thanks!

David

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:15:45 +0200
From: Hans Mons <Hans@hansmons.com>
To: list@contrabass.com
Subject: Contrabass sax in Leipzig

Hi all,

On one of my trips to museums, I visited last week the Musikinstrumenten Museum in Leipzig, Germany.

This museum contains a contrabass sax made from about 1930.  I have put a picture of this hughe instrument on my web site, see http://www.hansmons.com/sax/ Unfortunately, I was forced to use available light to make the photo, flash light was not allowed, therefore the quality of the picture is not that good.
 

Hans Mons

Hans@hansmons.com
http://www.hansmons.com/dulcians/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:58:11 EDT
From: <LeliaLoban@aol.com>
To: list@contrabass.com
Subject: low winds and organ pipes

From: LeliaLoban@aol.com (Lelia Loban)

In response to Gregg Bailey's comments about tone quality of various low-
pitched instruments, compared with organ pipes:  It's not easy to build mouth-
blown wind instruments that approximate what's available on a pipe organ.
There's more involved than pitch and tone.  It's true that the width and shape of
the bore and the holes affect the tone of the instrument.  Saxophonists, for
instance, know that instruments with a wider bore tend to have a darker sound,
with more audible low partials and fewer audible high partials.  But building a
better bass instrument means solving more problems than portability, as
mentioned by M. Grogg, and convenience of keywork, as mentioned by Grant
Green and others.  In addition, the designer must make sure that a reasonably
normal human being can honk that horn at all.

An organ designer can demand that a particular rank of pipes be voiced on,
say, 12" wind, like the 64' Diaphone Profunda on the 1929 Midmer-Losch in
Atlantic City's old Civic Auditorium.  (That electro-pneumatic organ is a total
monstrosity, IMHO, and more than half of it has never been playable, but never
mind....)  The baroque tracker organ Bach used at Weimar in the early 1700s
had a pair of 32' pedal bass ranks and was powered by ten large men stomping
up and down, one huge treadle under every boot.  Today, even an average-
sized pipe organ runs on two or more electrical air compressors that fill a
good-sized room hidden down in the basement.  One lone pipe doesn't require
that much horsepower, but still, since human beings can't hook ourselves up to
industrial-strength wind chests, playability of a bass instrument requires
delicate engineering to balance the length, diameter and shape of the pipe with
the characteristics of the mouthpiece and the tone holes.

I own several antique organ pipes.  (These turn up at flea markets occasionally
because when an old organ is torn down with a church, members of the
congregation sometimes take home pipes as souvenirs.  Taken out of their
context, the wooden ones, usually hidden in back of the decorative metal
facade pipes, mystify dealers, who will often mark a small pipe "dog whistle"
and a slightly larger one "tuning whistle."  When I asked a dealer how much he
wanted for a big wooden bass pipe, he said, "Twenty bucks, but you can have
it for ten if you can tell me what the hell it is."  When I buy a big one, I can
expect at least a dozen people to stop me and ask me about it as I lug it to the
car.)  One of my pipes is a 19th century rectangular-bored gedackt (stopped
diapason) made of spruce, 44" including the block but not including the
footing.  It is marked D#.  For comparison, if unstopped, this pipe would
match about low F on a tenor saxophone.  (The tenor sax is about 54 inches of
pipe--body plus neck, not counting the mouthpiece--if it were unbent; but
because not all of the bell functions as speaking length, its lowest Bb is the
approximate equivalent of a 4' C on an organ.)  However, since this gedackt is
a stopped diapason (in other words, it has a plug, just like a bottle stopper,
with a handle, that fits into the top of the pipe), it belongs to a rank of 8' pitch
and plays an octave lower than its length would dictate.  Therefore this D#
organ pipe plays a note that's usually on the sharp side of low F on a 1926 Low
Pitch (concert a=440) bass sax.  (I can't figure out the exact intended pitch of
this gedackt in Hz, because I don't know how many inches of wind it was
voiced on.  Overblowing or underblowing an organ pipe substantially changes
the pitch.)

Low F is not a problem note on the bass sax.  I'm no genius and I'm still
learning this instrument, but it's clear that I have enough air to play it with
reasonable volume and tone control and normal phrasing.  Aside from its
rectangular shape, the gedackt block is constucted almost exactly like the block
of a recorder (blockflute).  A recorder, being reedless, is easier to blow than a
sax, right?   No joy:  When I put the footing of that gedackt organ pipe in my
mouth, the best I can manage with all my strength is a short, brutal blat of less
than 2 seconds.  (Tastes mighty funky, too.  Bleagh.)  Removing the stopper, in
effect turning the pipe into an open diapason and raising the pitch an octave,
doesn't help a bit.  Blowing as hard as I can also means I have no control over
tone, pitch or volume. (There's nothing wrong with the pipe, because if I hook it
up to my air compressor, it sounds gorgeous.)

What if the pipe had cleverly designed holes and keys?  I suspect I still
wouldn't be able to get much in the way of music out of it, because that footing
simply wasn't designed as a mouthpiece, nor was the pipe itself ever designed
to be powered by human lungs.  I wish you well in designing your own musical
instruments, but don't expect improvements to come as easily as common sense
might suggest.

Lelia

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:07:37 EDT
From: <LeliaLoban@aol.com>
To: list@contrabass.com
Subject: transposition correction

Just realized that in my previous post, I reversed the transposition.  The
organ D# is of course not an F but a C on the Bb bass or tenor sax.  Sorry
about that!

Bassically somewhat stoopid today,
Lelia
LeliaLoban@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:33:17 PDT
From: "Mats 0ljare" <oljare@hotmail.com>
To: list@contrabass.com
Subject: Re: Many-a-low-topic

>Hello, fellow low people (not status-wise)!  I have just rejoined  y'all,
>and am now 16.
>Hey--are there other people on the list close to my age?????  I

Yes.

>       I play low clarinets.  The reason I am drawn to clarinet instruments is
>for the impressive square-wave tone produced by their lowest register.

The tone of a clarinet is not a square wave,not even that of a
virtual"perfect"clarinet of any shape.It does however have in common
with the square wave the fact that it contains only odd harmonics.
 

>(Hope I didn't get above anyone's head)  Yet most music for these
>instruments have the clarinet instruments play in their 2nd and 3rd
>registers, where this quality in the sound is gone completely.  It
>frustrates me, because it contradicts the very reason for me playing
>clarinet instruments (the low ones mainly, of course).

I always wanted to hear the bass clarinet,and perhaps also contrabass
clarinet,as well as the bassoon and tuba,used more for contrapunctal
parts and rythmic figures(latin ostinatos sound great on contrabass
clarinet in a big band)instead of just long notes or slow
countermelodies.
 

>you hear the pitch of the note is because all these (relatively) high
>harmonics beat with each other to produce the lowest harmonics.  But,
>since the lowest ones aren't ACTUALLY produced with any comparable
>strength, the walls of the room don't rattle as they do with organ  pipes
>of the same pitch.  When I play on a contra clarinet, it sounds like I'm
>playing on a comb with tissue paper wrapped around it.

Well,very important is what kind of reed you use(use a real contrabass
clarinet reed and mouthpiece)and your embouchure.However,i´ve also noted
the fact that the mouthpiece of the contrabass clarinet is very small
compared to the soprano-in fact it could be made considerably larger
without being unplayable.Or for an extreme example,consider the
contrabass saxophone!!!I want that steamboat sound.

>woodwinds.  Supposedly the bassoon is the only woodwind that hasn't
>undergone fingering/keywork improvement.  So why, OH WHY, doesn't
>SOMEBODY simply adapt oboe fingering for the bassoon?  After all, the

I don´t play oboe,but it looks like the most complicated thing i ever
seen in my life.The bassoon has pretty much the same fingerings as a
saxophone,with a few exceptions.

>       Does coiling and curving a musical tube, such as the sax and contra
>clarinet, effect the sound it produces?

An extreme curve,such as the one on a alto sax,does impede the travel of
air.However,the charactheristics of "alto"is mainly because of that. So
the straight alto,which does not have this problem,is still pretty
impopular.

>       I'm just gonna have to develop my own line of musical instruments.  (I
>also have ideas for pianos, harpsichords, and pipe organs!)
>       Future thanks for putting up with this email and answering any of my
>questions/replying to my comments!

What about 19-tones per octave instruments?Time to ask,is there anybody
more than me here dealing with(well,planning to deal with)microtonal
music or intelligent electronic instruments?

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:36:22 -0200
From: timjt@awod.com (Timothy Tikker)
To: <list@contrabass.com>
Subject: Re: list V1 #38

On cylindrical 32' reed resonators for a pipe organ:

One builder just gave me these diameters for the following pitches:

32' C has a diameter of 109 mm (= C an octave below the lowest note on a
standard piano);

16' C is 81 mm (= lowest C on a standard piano);

8' C is 61 mm (= low C on a 'cello).

I'd be interested to compare these dimensions to the bore diameters of deep
clarinets!

- Timothy Tikker

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Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:12:40 -0700
From: Grant Green <gdgreen@contrabass.com>
To: list@contrabass.com
Subject: Re: list V1 #38

At 05:36 PM 7/23/98 -0200, you wrote:
>One builder just gave me these diameters for the following pitches:
>
>32' C has a diameter of 109 mm (= C an octave below the lowest note on a
>standard piano);
>16' C is 81 mm (= lowest C on a standard piano);
>8' C is 61 mm (= low C on a 'cello).
>I'd be interested to compare these dimensions to the bore diameters of deep
>clarinets!

Well, an inch is 25.4 mm, so these diameters convert to:

8'C  = 2.4" - A bass clarinet with low D, typical bore size about .929-.945"
16'C = 3.2" - A contrabass clarinet with low D, typical bore about 1.1-1.3"
32'C = 4.3" - Octocontrabass clarinet, bore unknown.

If the mpc is that wide, I don't think I'll be playing one...

Grant
 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant D. Green                  gdgreen@contrabass.com
www.contrabass.com     Just filling in on sarrusophone
Contrabass email list:             list@contrabass.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:16:12 -0700
From: Grant Green <gdgreen@contrabass.com>
To: list@contrabass.com
Subject: Re: transposition correction

At 05:07 PM 7/23/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Just realized that in my previous post, I reversed the transposition.  The
>organ D# is of course not an F but a C on the Bb bass or tenor sax.  Sorry
>about that!

No, you were right the first time: F on a Bb instrument (tenor or bass sax)
is Eb, concert pitch.  It would be C on an Eb instrument (bari or
contrabass sax).  Bb instruments sound a step lower than their written music.

What is the diameter of the organ pipes you tried playing?  Given the
volume an organ generates, I'd guess they're designed to take (and
require!) a lot of pressure.

Grant

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grant D. Green                  gdgreen@contrabass.com
www.contrabass.com     Just filling in on sarrusophone
Contrabass email list:             list@contrabass.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:16:34 -0400
From: mgrogg@juno.com
To: list@contrabass.com
Subject: Re: Many-a-low-topic

>>woodwinds.  Supposedly the bassoon is the only woodwind that hasn't
>>undergone fingering/keywork improvement.  So why, OH WHY, doesn't
>>SOMEBODY simply adapt oboe fingering for the bassoon?  After all, the
>
>I don´t play oboe,but it looks like the most complicated thing i ever
>seen in my life.The bassoon has pretty much the same fingerings as a
>saxophone,with a few exceptions.

I did my double reed classes after having a couple of years of playing in
our university's early wind enemble.  I found the bassoon to be similar
to the bass recorder.  The main two octaves fingered much like a bass
recorder in F, notes below F had a certain logic, and the very high notes
had no logic at all.  Oboe was very much like soprano or tenor recorder,
forked F and all.  Clarinet fingerings made little sense to me, when I
did my time in the trenches as a school teacher my stock answer was "the
fingering chart is in the back of the book, look it up".

>What about 19-tones per octave instruments?Time to ask,is there
>anybody more than me here dealing with(well,planning to deal with)microtonal
>music or intelligent electronic instruments?

When I was in music school, (long time ago) we had a guy come through
with a double ranked keyboard instrument that played quartertones.  He
was doing a lecture recital series playing some Charles Ives and other
more recent works.

The concept of microtonality is nothing new, but you will be fighting
upstream against several hundred years of 12 tones per octave thinking.
I get enough dirty looks at orchestra rehearsal when I warm up with a two
octave whole tone scale.  It drives the strings nuts.

Good luck.

Michael Grogg

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End of list V1 #39
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